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Old 11-02-2014, 16:06   #31
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Re: Reality Check: Is the Liveaboard Lifestyle Possible for US?

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Originally Posted by azhootie View Post
please pardon my ignorance but when I think of trawlers, stinky fishy boats come to mind. There obviously must be liveaboard types because this is not the first time I've seen them mentioned. What brands and age might you suggest? and are they suitable to visit places like fiji? thank you!!
Our boat the Eagle is an example of a long range pleasure live aboard trawler. 58 ft, 40+ tons, single DD 671 165 hp cruise range 2,000 to 3,000 miles on 1,200 gallons of fuel. the range is dependant on hull speed and sea conditions. We been a live aboard for 16 years. Sister trawler have cross the Pacific Ocean 2 years ago. If you wnat to learn and talk trawerl go to Trawler Forum

Howevre, because of the long distance of you plan to cruises a heavy blue water mono hull sail boat would be your best choice. There are more blue water mono hull sail boats crossing oceans than cat and power combined under 60 ft. The main reason are most mono hull sail boats are full displacement and their speed is at or less than hull speed. Hull speed is the square root of the water length, so a 36 ft boat the hull speed is 6. Furthermore it does not take much HP to push a boat though the water at hull speed. Most of the long range boats, both power and sail are single engine with low horse power. A full displacement power boast will probable be bigger/heavier because of the fuel tanks required. However, they also have more live aboard space and comforts.
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Old 11-02-2014, 23:26   #32
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Re: Reality Check: Is the Liveaboard Lifestyle Possible for US?

> Hull speed is the square root of the water length, so a 36 ft boat the hull speed is 6

It's a simplification, but hull speed is normally reckoned to be 1.34 x sqrt(LWL) for a dsplacement hull so for a 36ft LWL boat, the hullspeed is more like 8 knots.

>
Furthermore it does not take much HP to push a boat though the water at hull speed.

On the contrary, fuel consumption increases rapidly as you approach hull speed.
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Old 12-02-2014, 04:33   #33
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Re: Reality Check: Is the Liveaboard Lifestyle Possible for US?

The thing that catches folks out is that with boats most things are possible (and IMO you / your plans are in the ballpark of the possible).........the tricky bit is deciding how likely (to succeed - and in a way is fun enough to have bothered!) and how prudent ("safe").

.......and educating self on the compromises that will need to make (no such thing as a perfect boat for every purpose / use) - some decisions can come from research, some from experience - but others come from a WAG!
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Old 12-02-2014, 07:14   #34
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Re: Reality Check: Is the Liveaboard Lifestyle Possible for US?

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> Hull speed is the square root of the water length, so a 36 ft boat the hull speed is 6

It's a simplification, but hull speed is normally reckoned to be 1.34 x sqrt(LWL) for a dsplacement hull so for a 36ft LWL boat, the hullspeed is more like 8 knots.

>
Furthermore it does not take much HP to push a boat though the water at hull speed.

On the contrary, fuel consumption increases rapidly as you approach hull speed.
Well said on both points.

Hull speed it is certainly more complex than the basic formula which is just a good rule of thumb. To get a more accurate estimate of a specific boat's hull speed you have to also consider several aspects of the hull shape like how fine or full the shape, how the fullness carries to the ends, total wetted surface area and more.

Fuel consumption will be closely tied to that as well but will certainly increase as the boat approaches the hull speed. However real world fuel consumption will also be significantly impacted by wind and sea conditions as well.

But for a cruiser the basic estimates are close enough for most situations.
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Old 12-02-2014, 09:18   #35
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Re: Reality Check: Is the Liveaboard Lifestyle Possible for US?

When a boat start to show the white bow spray. bone in her teeth, that shows the boat is pushing the hull speed. I am not sure for a sail boat if the square root of the hull could be multiplied by a factor. The Eagle runs/sounds/feel best at 1500 rpm and the speed ranges from 6 to 9 mph depending on wind/wave/conditions. We can push to 10 mph but we are pushing a lot of water, and using a lot of fuel, so the extra couple of mph is not worth it. Most boats like vehicle have a sweet spot, where they just feel/sound comfortable and perform well.

Also the hulls of most long range boat, sail or power, are full displacement the hulls are round and smooth which tend to have a low initial stability, sitting at the dock, but have a high max stability, and a high comfortable ratio and roll period. On a long range boat you want a high comfort ratio and comfortasble roll period. There was a discussion not long ago about comfort ratios that list the ratios for most sails boats. Here is a site of some ratios. http://www.sailingcourse.com/keelboat/motion_comfort.htm.

When looking at potential boats, power and sail, there are many factors that have to be considered. As said before there is NO perfect boat. YES, you can be a live aboard and cruise the world, but the boat, power/sail, has to have the capabilities and the comforts.

Here is a picture of the Eagle bottom which looks some what like a sails boats bottom and a bone in her teeth over hull speed.
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Old 12-02-2014, 09:34   #36
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Re: Reality Check: Is the Liveaboard Lifestyle Possible for US?

Just a little bit more info about my fuel consumption figure: I have recorded all my fuel purchases for 11 years. I divide that total by my engine hours run to get the 1 gph figure.

Thanks for the kind comment.
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Old 12-02-2014, 11:28   #37
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Re: Reality Check: Is the Liveaboard Lifestyle Possible for US?

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................
In the earlier posts there are several comments about fuel useage. Fuel consumption depends on how big your boat is, how fast it goes, and the hull type (displacement, semi-displacement, planing, cat, etc.) We have a 38' sailboat that uses 1 GPH @ hull speed of about 6.5 kts in flat water. A similar sized, single screw trawler will get similar mileage. The trawler will have significantly more interior space, but has more windage with all of the associated problems. ................
This is from Dale's post number 13 on page one so you know what boat he is referrencing above. Thank's Dale for the data!
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Old 12-02-2014, 12:07   #38
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Re: Reality Check: Is the Liveaboard Lifestyle Possible for Us?

Sounds like tou giys are alrwadt in the liveaboard groove given you have already broken the atrachment to stuff.

We found breaking the consumption at all costs mentality to take us several years.

Long story short. We are now liveaboards on a Liberty 458 and loving it.

Good luck and go for it.

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Old 12-02-2014, 12:33   #39
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Re: Reality Check: Is the Liveaboard Lifestyle Possible for US?

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Something to consider when deciding on power vs sail is how you "fit in" with the various groups of boaters (each type has several different subsets-big, little, fast, slow, elegant, like mine...) Not to put too fine a point on it, but do you like hanging out with "stink potters" or "rag baggers"? Do you prefer to hang out with folks that hire most of their on board work, or do you like doing your own work (and smelling faintly of diesel all the time?)

In the earlier posts there are several comments about fuel useage. Fuel consumption depends on how big your boat is, how fast it goes, and the hull type (displacement, semi-displacement, planing, cat, etc.) We have a 38' sailboat that uses 1 GPH @ hull speed of about 6.5 kts in flat water. A similar sized, single screw trawler will get similar mileage. The trawler will have significantly more interior space, but has more windage with all of the associated problems.

Your budget is certainly adequate, but will not support a "fancy" yacht. Consider buying a well cared for and equipped used boat. They exist. New is fine, but you shouldn't consider a new boat to be trouble free. Boats are built in very small quantity compared to autos for instance, and all have teething problems because of that. No matter what boat you end up with, I would suggest taking a few months close to a marine store and service facility until you can get it shaken down and ready to head out. The remote areas (aka prime cruising grounds) are not the place to be sorting out plumbing, rigging, electronics. Don't forget to acquire spare parts too.

I'm glad you are planning to bring the lab too. We would not go if it meant leaving our poodle behind. Have fun!
Unfortunately.. I've not found this to be true. Trawlers tend to carry larger engines for a given boat size than sailboats, and the reality is the bigger engine burns more fuel even though it pushing the same load. Personal expamples include: a CT44 ft cutter with a 51 HP perkins 4-108, The average fuel burn for the life of the vessel was .65 gal per hour. 8+knots speed.
I also had a 32 ft trawler with a Perkins 4-236, 85 HP. It burned 1.25 gallons per hour pretty regularly , max spped was about 7+ knots
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Old 12-02-2014, 13:00   #40
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Re: Reality Check: Is the Liveaboard Lifestyle Possible for US?

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Originally Posted by Dale Hedtke View Post
Just a little bit more info about my fuel consumption figure: I have recorded all my fuel purchases for 11 years. I divide that total by my engine hours run to get the 1 gph figure.

Thanks for the kind comment.
I believe you...but that figure doesn't apply to anyone else's boat for sure...

Most trawlers unless a very efficient displacement hull design will only burn 1GPH unless they are willing to go 4-5 knots.

I've traveled 6000 miles in my trawler in the last 3 years and get 1.9 GPH at 6.3 knots...which is better than many trawler guys cause they want to run a bit faster.

What works for me...doesn't necessarily work for anyone else...and most trawlers burn more fuel at slower speeds than most sailboats I've been on...but that's comparing elephants to cheetahs for the most part.
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Old 12-02-2014, 13:08   #41
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Re: Reality Check: Is the Liveaboard Lifestyle Possible for US?

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Unfortunately.. I've not found this to be true. Trawlers tend to carry larger engines for a given boat size than sailboats, and the reality is the bigger engine burns more fuel even though it pushing the same load. Personal expamples include: a CT44 ft cutter with a 51 HP perkins 4-108, The average fuel burn for the life of the vessel was .65 gal per hour. 8+knots speed.
I also had a 32 ft trawler with a Perkins 4-236, 85 HP. It burned 1.25 gallons per hour pretty regularly , max spped was about 7+ knots
not exactly apples to apples in hull size and design...
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Old 12-02-2014, 13:23   #42
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Re: Reality Check: Is the Liveaboard Lifestyle Possible for Us?

Muchas gracias for the continued info/advice. I am reading each one and appreciate the time you've each taken to help. I love some of the trawlers I've seen for sale online!! They seem to have *almost* all the comforts of home. One of the things I still like about the catamarans is the ability to go shallow and even right up onto the beach. Still haven't ruled trawlers out yet though. Never even knew they existed!

A couple of people mentioned something about the mistake of buying a boat for what you think or dream you'll do vs what you'll actually do. Realistically I think we'd spend the majority of our time in the Caribbean/Florida Keys etc but I really would love to make it back to Fiji and even over to the Mediterranean at some point. With that, does buying a catamaran with a sail make sense? I remember going on a catamaran on the Napali coast on Kauai and we sailed out but then just motored back. Would a person really use a sail island hopping in the Caribbean or should we just plan on getting a power catamaran and flying to Fiji/the Med sometime and using our timeshare?

Sorry about all the questions!!! I've tried going back through the various threads in this forum but not everyone has the same exact questions so whilst I am gaining an understanding on some things, I still need some help with others.

Thanks for your patience!!

hootie
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Old 12-02-2014, 17:39   #43
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Re: Reality Check: Is the Liveaboard Lifestyle Possible for Us?

In general there is an issue about selling a home to pay for a boat. One is in the long term an appreciating asset and the other a depreciating one. At some point given your ages it is likely that you may want to give up the boat. In say 15 years the boat will have gone from 200k to say 100k and the house from 200k to 300k. Statistically you will likely outlive your husband by close to 20 years.
I don't suggest that you base your lives on that but it is something to bear in mind.
As to the lack of appeal of sailing - well it is quite a leap from little or no experience to being comfortable with with it. You could well use the time now to gain experience in other people's boats.
You may find it difficult to get a long distance motor boat with the fuel capacity you need in the price and size. It is not my area but check it out.
Motion comfort in a cat? Again I would check this out in open water conditions. It may be true in many conditions but I suspect not always. Downhill in a sea can be trying in many motor boats.
The completely overwhelmed thread contains some information that could help even if it relates to a bigger boat.
Sure it pays to think of what you will actually in practice end up doing, but over ten years or so you may well end up doing some of the longer trips even if that is not how you start.
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Old 12-02-2014, 18:31   #44
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Re: Reality Check: Is the Liveaboard Lifestyle Possible for Us?

One of the problems you are facing is that a true safe all weather off shore boat will be more expensive and be less comfortable as an "apartment" than a coastal cruiser. FL, the Gulf of Mex and the Caribbean can be done in small enough steps that I'm very comfortable waiting as required for a good weather window to make a jump. Even Isla Mujeres near Cancun Mexico to Ft. Meyers FL (about 57 hours at our trawler speed) is not unreasonable. Weather forecasting 3 or even 4 days has gotten pretty reliable. To go across the Pacific with out a boat that can deal with serious weather would not be prudent in my opinion. However, one of the things that we like about our boat is the great views from our large windows. Large windows that I would REALLY not like to have breaking waves hitting. If we cruise the S. Pacific islands we will fly out and charter. We are in our mid 60s and am not comfortable operating a sailboat that would be big enough to have the amenities that we desire that we could also afford.

We spend most of our time at anchor. One thing about being off grid is that you think about every bit of energy that you use. Air conditioning is very energy intensive. When going to the tropics from cool weather via airplanes the first few days are brutal and sleep is very difficult for me. When easing into the heat it is much easier to take. We have air conditioning on our boat and do use it once in a while when off grid. We need to run the genset for about an hour a day for general energy consumption so we try to do it in the evening and close up the sleeping cabin with the air on. That pulls out the humidity and lowers temp enough so relaxing and getting to sleep is much easier even though it is only on for an hour or so. When hot I take a very quick rinse off cold shower just before bed and that helps me get to sleep.
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Old 12-02-2014, 19:22   #45
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Re: Reality Check: Is the Liveaboard Lifestyle Possible for Us?

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Originally Posted by azhootie View Post
SNIP

A couple of people mentioned something about the mistake of buying a boat for what you think or dream you'll do vs what you'll actually do. Realistically I think we'd spend the majority of our time in the Caribbean/Florida Keys etc but I really would love to make it back to Fiji and even over to the Mediterranean at some point. With that, does buying a catamaran with a sail make sense? I remember going on a catamaran on the Napali coast on Kauai and we sailed out but then just motored back. Would a person really use a sail island hopping in the Caribbean or should we just plan on getting a power catamaran and flying to Fiji/the Med sometime and using our timeshare?

SNIP
Last trip I took was seven weeks to the Dry Tortugas. Sailed around 400 miles and burned about 5 gallons of gas. Time wise the motors were running more during anchoring (probably takes me the better part of an hour to find a good spot, get the boat over it, back down, and make sure I am not dragging before I cut the engines) and raising the sails (big square top and the battens tend to get caught in the lazy jacks and topping lift unless I get the sail in just the right place) than anything else.

Same type of usage is common for lots of sailors, but some folks will sail to the anchorage and raise the sails and then pull the anchor up. Also ran the Honda 2000 once a week for an hour or so on general principal. Running around in the dinky also took some gas.

Saw a Yellow Fin with quad Mercs that was the tender for a 90 foot motor boat and their trip from Ft. Myers, fishing in the Yellow Fin, and going back probably cost more gas money than my boat. They anchored maybe 200 yards off my port bow and have to say their genset was one of the quietest I have ever seen.

There is another thread about cruising on $US5,000 a month. Some folks think that is way too much, others think they might be able to just get buy.

So to answer your question, some folks use very little gas and sail almost everywhere and others don't. What you have to do is figure out which group you are in.

Another thing to understand is basic sailing is easy to pick up quickly but you will still be learning no matter how many years you do it. Your best bet is to try and hitch a ride on as many boats as you can. Many times this will just mean hanging around the docks and asking. Offering to buy a pizza and sodas/beer is often all you need to do.

Until you have been on monohulls and multihulls, both power and sail you will not really know which suits you best.
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