Re: Vegan Liveaboards?

[avb3]

Originally Posted by svmeanderer

The study presented data. That data was then used by other qualified researchers to obtain additional conclusions. Those conclusions can be challenged or verified.

So far, no one has shown any challenge. There's been a lot of "the research shows" bull that means nothing.

Hey - eat what you want. Make up your own conclusions. You can hide a very long time from it all convincing yourself that you just have a way of knowing what's right. Bravo!

I do eat what I want. Very large amount is fruits, vegetables and grains, a lesser amount is wild game, or fish, and sometimes supplemented with chicken pork and very rarely beef. Remember, we humans are omnivores, just like bears or for that matter chimpanzees.

Moderation is the key word. My emphasis is is on the word moderation. I have an ex wife who was vegetarian, and I can guarantee you the type of vegetarian she was was not healthy.

[Teknav]

The way I look at it...watch your caloric intake, exercise at least three times a week (25 minutes each time), watch your blood pressure, have your cholesterol level regularly tested and monitor your sugar level... If you're doing that, congratulate yourself...no need to worry about anyone else's diet!

Mauritz
Everything I always wanted was against the law...my only crime was cheating on my diet!

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by svmeanderer

You haven't looked in the right places. There's overwhelming proof. There is, however, a huge and wealthy meat and dairy industry that makes sure you don't get the proof. Because of that, you know "Got Milk?" and "Beef, it's what's for dinner" but you don't know that even lettuce has more protein per calorie than a steak (it's a fact).

The low carbohydrate/high protein diet that has been pushed in a dozen fad diets documenting how insulin is the enemy are the things without real scientific background. But they conform to the meat and dairy industry so the result is that you know (and believe) them. You only need to look up pictures of Atkins himself who usually was dressed in a suit or sweater hiding his overweight girth. Interesting how he suffered a cardiac arrest and died young? Think there's the possibility for a connection to his diet?

If you want the truth, look at science. Harvard and Cornell are pretty good places to start. To be entertained while learning, search YouTube for McDougall. Find out about "The China Study" - the largest, most comprehensive scientific study about nutrition and diet ever conducted. It took 30 years to collect the data and you probably never heard about it. Take a guess about why. Watch the documentary "Forks Over Knives." If you approach those things with an open mind, your life will be forever changed.

We're full-time liveaboard vegans for health reasons. I like the animal rights positions as a side benefit but I'm not nuts over it. I don't protest labs or slaughterhouses and I haven't thrown out my leather belts. It's easy to be vegan onboard and you wouldn't have a problem doing it anywhere. The most difficult thing are the times when you want to go to a restaurant and there's just nothing possible in many of the smaller towns. But because we're so compliant 95%+ of the time, we enjoy that great steak or fantastic burger, perhaps about as often as Mark sits down to a nice plate of quinoa and roasted vegetables.

I am a vedgetarian for the same reasons. After my 2nd. MCI and the fact my numbers would not behave, I went veggie. Amazingly, within a few years my numbers went back to normal and actually lower than most people.

Originally Posted by ArtM

Here's another fact - high quality vegan foods are expensive and difficult to obtain in the U.S.

Healthy, balanced vegan diets are not accessible to the poor, are costly for the middle class, and impractical for anyone else who frequently eats out in American style restaurants.

Sorry, I don't have any source for this except my own observations over about the last 10 years since I gave up my vegan diet.

I'm vegetarian and my food bill is 1/2 of what it use to be when I wasn't.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by avb3

Vegetarian:

And old Indian word for lousy hunter

Carnivore: A new term for a person passing before their time.

[avb3]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

Carnivore: A new term for a person passing before their time.

Which is why nature had us humans evolve as omnivores.

[MBLittle]

Originally Posted by avb3

Which is why nature had us humans evolve as omnivores.

Have yet to see a human run down a gazelle and eat it's flesh raw. Maybe I haven't been on YouTube recently...

[Coops]

Some of them that I have seen could not run down a cabbage.

Coops.

[forsailbyowner]

Maybe I'm strange (OK yes I am strange) but not a huge sprout fan, at least not alfalfa sprouts.

Have you tried mung bean sprouts? After trying a lot of different kinds of sprouts I like these the best. When I put a cup on to sprout its sending out growth before 24 hours is up and sprouts completely in 2 days. One cup dry yields almost a half gallon of sprouts, Their very economical. One drawback to sprouting while cruising is the water needed for the rinsing. The quick germination and growth makes these require by a long stretch less water than others. Their loaded with vitamins c, k, iron, folate and amino acids.
Not many calories though only 30 per cup. One other plus is they dont require cooking like most to alleviate the gastric upset caused by eating raw beans. The taste is subtle and not bitter and doesnt hold an aftertaste. Much like lettuce except way more nutrient dense.
Toward the end of a passage when all perishable food is gone it can be nice to have crunchy fresh "greens".

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by forsailbyowner

Maybe I'm strange (OK yes I am strange) but not a huge sprout fan, at least not alfalfa sprouts.

Have you tried mung bean sprouts? After trying a lot of different kinds of sprouts I like these the best. When I put a cup on to sprout its sending out growth before 24 hours is up and sprouts completely in 2 days. One cup dry yields almost a half gallon of sprouts, Their very economical. One drawback to sprouting while cruising is the water needed for the rinsing. The quick germination and growth makes these require by a long stretch less water than others. Their loaded with vitamins c, k, iron, folate and amino acids.
Not many calories though only 30 per cup. One other plus is they dont require cooking like most to alleviate the gastric upset caused by eating raw beans. The taste is subtle and not bitter and doesnt hold an aftertaste. Much like lettuce except way more nutrient dense.
Toward the end of a passage when all perishable food is gone it can be nice to have crunchy fresh "greens".

Yes mung bean sprouts are high on my list. Also used to buy a spicy sprout blend at the local shop that was excellent. Forget what all was in the mix but a couple of things that had a bit of zing. Have just gotten lazy with sprout growing lately since we are in an area where really good, fresh veggies are so easy.

But also, 100% having some fresh, crunchy green stuff at the end of a passage when all the other fresh food is gone is great and when I'm back on the water that will be on the list.

Too bad they didn't know about sprouts back in the days of sail when so many sailors died of scurvy. Would have been an easy, doable preventative.

[svmeanderer]

Originally Posted by avb3

Remember, we humans are omnivores, just like bears or for that matter chimpanzees.

There's growing proof that human meat eating is a recent thing. Dairy eating is a very odd and medium-term thing. How many other secretions from other animals do you consume? What other animal in the entire known animal kingdom drinks the milk from another animal?

But chimpanzees are alive today and while they eat insects (1-2%) they mainly eat a vegetarian diet. Larger apes will eat other mammals especially as they share fewer genes with humans. Chimpanzees and gorillas share the most and eat the least meat.

Until Jane Goodall did her extensive research about chimps, they were thought to be total herbavores. She found otherwise:
http://www.allaboutwildlife.com/what-do-chimps-eat

Again, each statement you make comes across as if you're an authority. But each statement has been challenged by factual, non-biased examples and shown to be incorrect.

You clearly have some type of prejudice against a full vegan lifestyle. You're certainly allowed to have your opinions - I'd fight hard to make sure none were taken away. But you're not allowed to have your own facts especially when they've been so consistently wrong.

[avb3]

Originally Posted by svmeanderer

There's growing proof that human meat eating is a recent thing. Dairy eating is a very odd and medium-term thing. How many other secretions from other animals do you consume? What other animal in the entire known animal kingdom drinks the milk from another animal?

But chimpanzees are alive today and while they eat insects (1-2%) they mainly eat a vegetarian diet. Larger apes will eat other mammals especially as they share fewer genes with humans. Chimpanzees and gorillas share the most and eat the least meat.

Until Jane Goodall did her extensive research about chimps, they were thought to be total herbavores. She found otherwise:
http://www.allaboutwildlife.com/what-do-chimps-eat

Again, each statement you make comes across as if you're an authority. But each statement has been challenged by factual, non-biased examples and shown to be incorrect.

You clearly have some type of prejudice against a full vegan lifestyle. You're certainly allowed to have your opinions - I'd fight hard to make sure none were taken away. But you're not allowed to have your own facts especially when they've been so consistently wrong.

Let's stick what's the science. First of all I fully acknowledge that excess of various meats is not as healthy as avoiding them. That is science.

Now let's look at the science of human beings and their development as omnivores.

Human beings have the classic omnivore jaw structure. They also have a classic omnivore tooth structure. What is most important is that the digestive system is such that has the enzymes to digest both meat and plant material.

Here's an interesting article from NPR with studies one can go look at. I assume we can both agree that NPR is a non biased source.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/201...was-no-dilemma

Here is an article from an admitted biased source, a vegetarian website. The author is a vegetarian, however he is also a scientist.

http://www.vrg.org/nutshell/omni.htm

Here is an abstract that underlines the effect of meat on heart health. It substantiates what I acknowledged earlier, regarding excessive meat intake.

http://m.ajcn.nutrition.org/content/31/5/805.short

Certainly the references from Wikipedia underline that human beings are omnivores.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnivore

You may want to read this studies abstract and full attachments on why humans are omnivores.

http://m.sciencemag.org/content/320/5883/1647.short

This study, in the Royal Journal of Medicine, discusses why humans as omnivores have been so successful.

I will just quote from the opening paragraph.
......
In terms of nutrition,the fact of it being an omnivore has also been most helpful......

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1292945/

And perhaps most importantly, this study indicates the importance of human beings having developed as a species and being differentiated from the great apes because of our larger intake of meat.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0032452

The vast majority of the links I gave are pure science and not opinion with exceptional one vegetarian website and the NPR article.

[svmeanderer]

I agree that many of our features allow for an omnivore lifestyle. And humans are still evolving too. I'm not sure what any of that proves.

The bottom line is, what's healthy for us now? If you want to consume protein wrapped in fat, go get 'em. If you think that fish is somehow better, feast away. The reality is that having a diet higher in meat and dairy products makes you sicker than not having them. And living onboard a boat is a great way to live in harmony with nature in a healthy way - and being a vegetarian or vegan onboard is totally consistent with that way of thinking.

[forsailbyowner]

Originally Posted by avb3

Let's stick what's the science. First of all I fully acknowledge that excess of various meats is not as healthy as avoiding them. That is science.

Now let's look at the science of human beings and their development as omnivores.

Human beings have the classic omnivore jaw structure. They also have a classic omnivore tooth structure. What is most important is that the digestive system is such that has the enzymes to digest both meat and plant material.

Here's an interesting article from NPR with studies one can go look at. I assume we can both agree that NPR is a non biased source.

For Most Of Human History, Being An Omnivore Was No Dilemma : The Salt : NPR

Here is an article from an admitted biased source, a vegetarian website. The author is a vegetarian, however he is also a scientist.

Humans are Omnivores -- The Vegetarian Resource Group

Here is an abstract that underlines the effect of meat on heart health. It substantiates what I acknowledged earlier, regarding excessive meat intake.

AJCN | Mobile

Certainly the references from Wikipedia underline that human beings are omnivores.

Omnivore - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You may want to read this studies abstract and full attachments on why humans are omnivores.

Science | From AAAS

This study, in the Royal Journal of Medicine, discusses why humans as omnivores have been so successful.

I will just quote from the opening paragraph.
......
In terms of nutrition,the fact of it being an omnivore has also been most helpful......

Homo sapiens--a species too successful.

And perhaps most importantly, this study indicates the importance of human beings having developed as a species and being differentiated from the great apes because of our larger intake of meat.

PLOS ONE: Impact of Carnivory on Human Development and Evolution Revealed by a New Unifying Model of Weaning in Mammals

The vast majority of the links I gave are pure science and not opinion with exceptional one vegetarian website and the NPR article.

May I ask what exactly is your point? Are you here to say choosing a vegan diet is wrong? or offends you? Im very curious as what your trying to say. Ive been close to several ethical vegans in my life. Each one of them had stories of being denigrated and or ridiculed by a relative or in social situations for the simple fact that they chose a vegan lifestyle. Picture another scenario. A person is unwell and in their research they keep reading eat more colorful vegetables for good health and ends up with a vegan lifestyle trying to make themselves feel better. Then for no known reason someone keeps telling you YOUR WRONG IN YOUR DECISION. In that light the posts just look mean. I for one picked up my eating habits reading bedside about the causes of cancer while my wife slowly died of it. I came up with the conclusion that eating a mainly plant based diet ,avoiding processed foods and preservatives, eating nutrient dense foods and minimizing stress will lessen my chances of dieing a horrible painful slow death. Tell me why Im wrong again but please let me in on your motivation.

[avb3]

Originally Posted by svmeanderer

I agree that many of our features allow for an omnivore lifestyle. And humans are still evolving too. I'm not sure what any of that proves.

The bottom line is, what's healthy for us now? If you want to consume protein wrapped in fat, go get 'em. If you think that fish is somehow better, feast away. The reality is that having a diet higher in meat and dairy products makes you sicker than not having them. And living onboard a boat is a great way to live in harmony with nature in a healthy way - and being a vegetarian or vegan onboard is totally consistent with that way of thinking.

I think we can both agree, that an excess of fatty meat is not healthy. We probably both agree that a diet that consists significantly of fruits vegetables is healthy.

Where we seem to disagree, is that science does seem to indicate that we require some parts of our diet to be supplied by nutrients available in meat.

You choose not to eat any meat, I choose to eat only wild game when available. I recognize and I'm just as concerned as many others, with the issues of growth hormones and antibiotics that are in commercially raised animals.

As I stated before, moderation is the key.

[skipmac]

Even though I've been a vegetarian for over 40 years I see no point in trying to convert others to my point of view for any moral or dietary reasons. It's about like arguing religion, politics, climate change, guns or anchors. No matter what is said no one on either side is going to change his or her mind and at the end of the day, it's none of my business what another person wants to do with his or her body.

Also I think a balanced diet whether vegan, vegetarian or omnivorous can be healthy, assuming the food is not loaded with hormones, chemical additives, antibiotics, pesticides and the rest of the crap that is common in much food today.

What I do believe that is not arguable is the impact meat production has on the environment and resources of the planet. I have read from many sources that it takes 12 lbs to over 20 lbs of vegetable protein to produce one lb of meat protein or some similar multiple of land to do the same. Also the wastes generated by large scale animal husbandry needed to supply the meat protein demands of the US have a huge impact on the environment. Millions of gallons of waste with the associated odor, high nitrate and other content is polluting large areas of the country. I see it particularly bad in Florida where much of the state geology is very porous karst with numerous underground water channels that can transmit the waste to water supplies miles away.

AND, yes I know that agriculture also generates wastes and runoff from fertilizer use but the levels are much lower and it can be easier to minimize the impacts.

So whether or not you believe any particular diet is better or worse for your body, a non-meat diet is undeniably kinder to the planet.

I won't even get into fish and the overfishing damage to global fish stocks which is another fun topic to address.