Re: Vegan Liveaboards?

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Coops

I am a 'pisscatorian". I will eat anything if there is a beer with it.

Coops.

Cute!

[svmeanderer]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

Actually, the research shows that vegetarians don't lose weight any more than people who eat meat do. The body still consumes the calories it wants. "Going vegan" is not a way to lose weight.

Anytime someone says something like, "the research shows," sorry, but it's usually BS. Quote the research. I did. Read "The China Study" outcomes and you'll find that the vetted facts don't support your beliefs.

And as for conspiracy theories, I agree with you. But this ain't it. I'm not saying that anyone is hiding the truth - there are a million trying to get it out. The problem is that it's very difficult to get the word out about scientific findings without money. But look, don't believe me - you shouldn't. YouTube McDougall, real the China Study, watch Forks Over Knives, and come to your own conclusions.

[Coops]

Originally Posted by MARC D

Never would have clicked on this thread...until I saw a post from Coops

Now you realise it was not worth the effort.

Coops.

[MARC D]

Originally Posted by Coops

Now you realise it was not worth the effort.

Coops.

I am sorry but must say now that I disagree

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by svmeanderer

You haven't looked in the right places. There's overwhelming proof. There is, however, a huge and wealthy meat and dairy industry that makes sure you don't get the proof. Because of that, you know "Got Milk?" and "Beef, it's what's for dinner" but you don't know that even lettuce has more protein per calorie than a steak (it's a fact).

The low carbohydrate/high protein diet that has been pushed in a dozen fad diets documenting how insulin is the enemy are the things without real scientific background. But they conform to the meat and dairy industry so the result is that you know (and believe) them. You only need to look up pictures of Atkins himself who usually was dressed in a suit or sweater hiding his overweight girth. Interesting how he suffered a cardiac arrest and died young? Think there's the possibility for a connection to his diet?

If you want the truth, look at science. Harvard and Cornell are pretty good places to start. To be entertained while learning, search YouTube for McDougall. Find out about "The China Study" - the largest, most comprehensive scientific study about nutrition and diet ever conducted. It took 30 years to collect the data and you probably never heard about it. Take a guess about why. Watch the documentary "Forks Over Knives." If you approach those things with an open mind, your life will be forever changed.

We're full-time liveaboard vegans for health reasons. I like the animal rights positions as a side benefit but I'm not nuts over it. I don't protest labs or slaughterhouses and I haven't thrown out my leather belts. It's easy to be vegan onboard and you wouldn't have a problem doing it anywhere. The most difficult thing are the times when you want to go to a restaurant and there's just nothing possible in many of the smaller towns. But because we're so compliant 95%+ of the time, we enjoy that great steak or fantastic burger, perhaps about as often as Mark sits down to a nice plate of quinoa and roasted vegetables.

It was the "China study" that brought down any doubts I had...my girlfriend showed me a bunch of literature and videos...then I did some REAL research and the China Study has been blown so far out of the water it's comical to anyone with common sense.

I watched "forks over knives" and giggled myself to sleep. You could see the scientific bull in it about halfway through...it's an agenda driven video to promote its producers.....if you blindly believe it...keep researching...lot's of "critics" show were the flaws are in that film.

I suggest you dig deeper than highly publicized and "In" ideas.

No one suggests that the typical American diet is anywhere near healthy...but it's not a death sentence either.,,,as proven by millions of "body abusers" as so many "health nuts" so claim should have been dead in their 40s.

I've gone much of the way with my friend in her quest to get healthy...she watched Forks over Knives and was all hot about it. We went most of the way and after 1.5 years...she is no healthier and I feel A LOT BETTER after a burger and a beer. I don't do it every week...buy my blood work didn't show the slightest improvements after 1.5 years of little meat compared to a slightly more animal protein diet I ate for 57 years.

All I can say is there hasn't been any "study" that has convinced me that animal protein is poison and people should eat whatever their bodies can handle and enjoy....getting old and hating dinner time causes more damage from stress than a little animal protein for many of us.

[svmeanderer]

Originally Posted by psneeld

I did some REAL research and the China Study has been blown so far out of the water it's comical to anyone with common sense.

Again then, quote it specifically - not this "I did some REAL research". Bull. There's non-scientific criticisms of The China Study by a couple of bloggers (seriously). Give a credible research study debunking The China Study.

If your blood values didn't change significantly after a few months, you cheated and thereby cheated yourself.

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by svmeanderer

Again then, quote it specifically - not this "I did some REAL research". Bull. There's non-scientific criticisms of The China Study by a couple of bloggers (seriously). Give a credible research study debunking The China Study.

If your blood values didn't change significantly after a few months, you cheated and thereby cheated yourself.

Why would anyone waste their time and grant money debunking something the average layman can see through?

I don't need to cheat on my diet...as my docs have aways said....your blood work is boring because it's so low on the good sides.

I gave up "cheating myself" when I went back to a diet of moderation than absolutes....

[Coops]

Better read this then which seems to throw some water on the subject.

What Dr. Campbell Won't Tell You About the China Study

Coops.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by ArtM

Here's another fact - high quality vegan foods are expensive and difficult to obtain in the U.S.

Not advocating for or against vegan diets but have to disagree with this claim. Dried beans of many kinds, grains, soy and other vegan sources of protein are not expensive at all and in fact much cheaper than any sort of meat protein.

Originally Posted by ArtM

Healthy, balanced vegan diets are not accessible to the poor, are costly for the middle class, and impractical for anyone else who frequently eats out in American style restaurants.

Again, see the above suggestions for diet, accessible and affordable for anyone. As far as American style restaurants, then I can't argue that it would be more difficult and more expensive to find decent vegan food than to order a burger at nearest McDonalds, but on the other hand, for the last ten years I've traveled all over the US and Europe and managed to maintain a vegetarian (not vegan) diet without too much difficulty or outrageous expense.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by svmeanderer

Anytime someone says something like, "the research shows," sorry, but it's usually BS. Quote the research. I did. Read "The China Study" outcomes and you'll find that the vetted facts don't support your beliefs.

And as for conspiracy theories, I agree with you. But this ain't it. I'm not saying that anyone is hiding the truth - there are a million trying to get it out. The problem is that it's very difficult to get the word out about scientific findings without money. But look, don't believe me - you shouldn't. YouTube McDougall, real the China Study, watch Forks Over Knives, and come to your own conclusions.

Sorry, but you don't get real research from YouTube, and real research isn't titled things like "Forks Over Knives." Many, many times when one sees such reports, it turns out that the writer over-interpreted the research, drawing conclusions that the research didn't really support.

And, it doesn't take any money to get *real* scientific findings out. Well-respected journals do not charge for publication. Neither do the media. Good research has no trouble getting out. When the place you find it is YouTube, there's a reason.

[svmeanderer]

Originally Posted by Coops

Better read this then which seems to throw some water on the subject.

What Dr. Campbell Won't Tell You About the China Study

Coops.

You're kidding right? I can't tell but I didn't see a smiley face.

Let's see, the debunking above is on the Cholesterol - You Can't Live Without It! website written without an author. The website's slogan is, "Uncovering the truth about America's most demonized nutrient."

Take a guess about the source of cholesterol in food. If you happened to guess meat and dairy, you win.

Do you really think anything on that website is unbiased against a major scientific study published in numerous places against significant critical exposure?

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Coops

Better read this then which seems to throw some water on the subject.

What Dr. Campbell Won't Tell You About the China Study

Coops.

Books aren't research.

[Teknav]

...next thread suggestion..."SEEfood Liveaboard"; any food you SEE, you'll eat!

Mauritz
Going to behave now!

[SailFastTri]

Originally Posted by psneeld

It was the "China study" that brought down any doubts I had...my girlfriend showed me a bunch of literature and videos...then I did some REAL research and the China Study has been blown so far out of the water it's comical to anyone with common sense.

I watched "forks over knives" and giggled myself to sleep. Yuo could see the scientific bull in it about halfway through...it's an agenda driven video to promote its producers.....if you blindly believe it...keep researching...lot's of "critics" show were the flaws are in that film.

I suggest you dig deeper than highly publicized and "In" ideas.

No one suggests that the typical American diet is anywhere near healthy...but it's not a death sentence either.,,,as proven by millions of "body abusers" as so many "health nuts" so claim should have been dead in their 40s.

I've gone much of the way with my friend I her quest to get healthy...she watched fork over knives and was all hot about it. We went most of the way and after 1.5 years...she is no healthier and I feel A LOT BETTER after a burger and a beer. I don't do it every week...buy my blood work didn't show the slightest improvements after 1.5 years of little meat compared to a slightly more animal protein diet I ate for 57 years.

All I can say is there hasn't been any "study" that has convinced me that animal protein is poison and people should eat whatever their bodies can handle and enjoy....getting old and hating dinner time causes more damage from stress than a little animal protein for many of us.

This topic tends to be much like arguing religion, operating system (Linux, Apple, Windows) or child rearing -- so many people have life-long personal experience that their own beliefs and opinions are strongly held. Food is also a cultural thing, with traditional cooking styles very much tied in with national origin and even religion/ceremonies/events (e.g. Thanksgiving dinner).

People are understandably reluctant to change, because they don't know how to cook differently, so they look at change as "giving something up".



The majority of people's point of view is biased by the big-money industry lobbies, advertising and Madison Ave. The Agriculture industry and food lobbies determine the studies that get funding and studies are funded to get the results they want.

As for your comments about China Study and Forks Over Knives being "debunked" you should really consider "from whence it came". There is huge money behind paid bloggers and "authors". PR placements are paid for that don't look like ads. There is big money for "heart healthy" fake food that's loaded with processed chemicals, sugars, fats, colors and preservatives. GMO grains are sold for higher yield in crops that have been sprayed with Roundup. The NSF and Agriculture Department (and the drug companies do this with the NIH) is run by people who have been industry leaders and aspire to consulting and lobbying jobs in Big Agriculture when they move on from "government jobs". The people we all want to trust are corrupted by their own self interests. The so-called "food pyramid" has no basis in science and is a fabrication of special interest groups. The vitamin industry is also a huge lobby and influence that disseminates partial truths and misinformation.

My wife and I adopted a whole foods, plant-based diet about 2 years ago. My wife is a great cook and we have actively sought out new foods and recipes. We have learned about using new spices and foods from other cultures including foods with Asian, Indian, Middle-Eastern and Latin origins. We have never had more variety and color on our plates. Even our kids say we're eating better more interesting foods, and even though my wife offers to add meats and fish to their plates, they usually say "no need, we'll have what you're having".

As for expense: Check your own shopping cart -- it's the meats/fish and dairy that are the highest priced things, generally, along with processed and prepared foods. (Perhaps truffles are the exception if you were to add those to your cart). Grains, vegetables, fruits, legumes, leafy greens and other produce etc. are less costly on a per-serving basis.

People eat everywhere, but it's more difficult to get away from processed and fatty foods in some places than others. Eating a whole-foods plant-based diet means we have to seek out larger markets, farmers markets, etc. Often that means a long cab ride and not settling for convenience markets. Once in a while when choices are limited (for example at a wedding) we'll choose some fish or chicken and have just a little, concentrating on the side dishes and the olives, tomatoes, salads and crudité, so as not to make our food choices an issue.

As for health -- the type of chronic problems that are documented by McDougle, Colin Campbell, and Dr. Esselstein are real and the solutions they propose can be effective. You wrote you "didn't show the slightest improvements after 1.5 years of little meat compared to a slightly more animal protein diet I ate for 57 years". The question is whether "little meat" was enough, and what else did you do? Did you gorge on processed foods and did you eat rich restaurant food at business lunches? Did you still eat processed sweets like cookies and cake or did you munch on chips?

My own blood values improved greatly, and my doctor became a believer. He had brought up the subject of statins prior to my change in diet, and now I'm way below the ranges where it would even be considered (by him). I also have more constant energy and no more afternoon "blahs".

[pressuredrop]

Originally Posted by svmeanderer

You haven't looked in the right places. There's overwhelming proof. There is, however, a huge and wealthy meat and dairy industry that makes sure you don't get the proof. Because of that, you know "Got Milk?" and "Beef, it's what's for dinner" but you don't know that even lettuce has more protein per calorie than a steak (it's a fact).

The low carbohydrate/high protein diet that has been pushed in a dozen fad diets documenting how insulin is the enemy are the things without real scientific background. But they conform to the meat and dairy industry so the result is that you know (and believe) them. You only need to look up pictures of Atkins himself who usually was dressed in a suit or sweater hiding his overweight girth. Interesting how he suffered a cardiac arrest and died young? Think there's the possibility for a connection to his diet?

If you want the truth, look at science. Harvard and Cornell are pretty good places to start. To be entertained while learning, search YouTube for McDougall. Find out about "The China Study" - the largest, most comprehensive scientific study about nutrition and diet ever conducted. It took 30 years to collect the data and you probably never heard about it. Take a guess about why. Watch the documentary "Forks Over Knives." If you approach those things with an open mind, your life will be forever changed.

We're full-time liveaboard vegans for health reasons. I like the animal rights positions as a side benefit but I'm not nuts over it. I don't protest labs or slaughterhouses and I haven't thrown out my leather belts. It's easy to be vegan onboard and you wouldn't have a problem doing it anywhere. The most difficult thing are the times when you want to go to a restaurant and there's just nothing possible in many of the smaller towns. But because we're so compliant 95%+ of the time, we enjoy that great steak or fantastic burger, perhaps about as often as Mark sits down to a nice plate of quinoa and roasted vegetables.

are you firmiliar with this book, nutrition and physical degeneration by weston price?

Weston Price: Nutrition and Physical Degeneration; Table of Contents

how do you feel about the fact there is absolutely no historical reference of vegan diet among an indigenous, primitive, population anywhere on this planet?