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Old 24-03-2014, 13:01   #31
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Re: Racing vs Cruising

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This is not the issue, the key to cruising and I mean long distance cruising, is to protect the vessel and arrive. Racing in general stresses pushing the vessel, because in the main , the boat is "over crewed" and organised rescue is to hand.

Hence often racing skippers make bad cruisers, until they learn to slow down and protect the boat, Ive delivered a few with racing owners, its was often an eye opener for then , the priority of decision making.

Hence its wrong to present racers as sail trim experts, often on race boats you only learn one thing, on a cruise you learn everything.

dave
The " learn to slow down was my point " when I said "read a book". Bad example on my part.

But racing will teach you about the wind, the lands effect on the wind, and the affect of the sails, the mast position etc have on the boat all of which can be of benefit to the cruiser especially if he wants to rely on his sails more.

Having said that though these same skills can get you in trouble on a "big" boat if you do not know the capablities of that boat under sail. Can be best just to motor in tight situations.

It's almost as different as night and day. For example I used the anchor a lot when fishing as a young man, but that anchor only had to hold the boat for the few hours I fished which were when I was totally awake and alert.

Being anchored over night 80 yards from shore when the wind decides to kick up to about 25 knots of onshore breeze is another story all together. I'm just happy the old salt that owned my boat before I bought it had the correct anchor(s) for it.

The main anchor he has on the bow is a 20lb CQR with maybe 30' of chain and 250' of rode. There's a spare big Bruce anchor onboard also with 35' of heavier chain and maybe 300' of rode. Then there are 3 danforths.

It is nice though to know how to drive the boat with just your sails alone which as you know from our previous "discussions" I learned from racing.

You can turn the boat into the wind anytime with just the main sail. Also on a small catamaran we come to the beach and leave the beach with our rudders and daggerboards up so we sail out (and in) with sails alone and try not to spill out prerace beer maneuvering thru small children and old ladies.

But cruising is definitely a lot different than racing.

When I am boat shopping though as I am now, I do definitely stay away from any boat that has been raced hard, or has been raced period.
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Old 24-03-2014, 15:22   #32
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Re: Racing vs Cruising

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
This is not the issue, the key to cruising and I mean long distance cruising, is to protect the vessel and arrive. Racing in general stresses pushing the vessel, because in the main , the boat is "over crewed" and organised rescue is to hand.

Hence often racing skippers make bad cruisers, until they learn to slow down and protect the boat, Ive delivered a few with racing owners, its was often an eye opener for them

dave
That has been my same delivery experience and why I try to blunt the racing mindset in a long delivery.
To me, racing is like gambling.... Sure it teaches you to hone your observation skills but it also justifies creating close quarter risks to defeat an opponent.
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Old 24-03-2014, 15:36   #33
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Re: Racing vs Cruising

Racing teaches you how to sail efficiently. Racers know more than most about how to take care of a boat.

How many times have you seen a cruiser sailing close to the wind with just his jib up? He may be clueless to the fact that he is really overloading his rudder.

Many cruisers do not realize that the rudder should be thought of as a trim tab. Racing teaches you this.

All I'm saying is do not discount what you can learn from racing. You have to know how everything affects the boat to win. Both on the boat and off.
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Old 24-03-2014, 16:00   #34
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Re: Racing vs Cruising

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Racers know more than most about how to take care of a boat.
my racing and delivery experience suggests otherwise and I cant agree with you there. Racing by its very nature, pushes both crew and vessel, cruising is about protecting one and nurturing the other.

dave
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Old 24-03-2014, 16:15   #35
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Re: Racing vs Cruising

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my racing and delivery experience suggests otherwise and I cant agree with you there. Racing by its very nature, pushes both crew and vessel, cruising is about protecting one and nurturing the other.

dave
That's fine.

I'm just saying a racer should know how to take care of a boat by sailing it properly because he knows when he is overloading certain things on the boat by what he does to win.

Some racers though come across the wrong way though since they are so obsessed with winning.

joseph Conrad said yachties don't really know the sea. They are just out there for a few hours playing. This is true as I am learning, but so many cruisers don't know how to get the most out of the sails on their boats and really don't get a chance to since they have engines.

My 15 years racing was engineless even the five or six 100 mile races I did plus multiple 20-30 milers.

But now I love my 5 hp Mercury outboard!!!
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Old 25-03-2014, 04:32   #36
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Re: Racing vs Cruising

I'm thinking it has a lot to do with the skipper and his knowledge.

A racer will definitely have to get into another gear to be a decent cruiser, but having pushed boats hard he should know their capabilities as well as how they sail in most all conditions

I have raced on days when the wind was so strong that I would not normally even sail especially with 20 other boats within a foot or two of each other on the start line.

Check the cruiser coming out thru the surf line here (at :47) Maybe another day would have been better? Then there's your racer. (1:53) He still has the hammer down..............and if you are not bored yet, get a load of the red fishing boat running for cover using everything his 900HP Yanmar can give him...............then you have your old full keel cruising boat sailing itself while the crew is below trying to stop a leak (4:25):

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Old 27-03-2014, 08:55   #37
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Re: Racing vs Cruising

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
my racing and delivery experience suggests otherwise and I cant agree with you there. Racing by its very nature, pushes both crew and vessel, cruising is about protecting one and nurturing the other.

dave
I agree.

It takes some time and experience with both types of sailors to shift gear between racing and cruising.
Cruising is about the most comfortable type of sailing (for both crew and boat).

When racing you need to extract the last 0.1 knot without breaking anything that will slow you down for the duration of the race.

A common problem of experienced racing sailors, when cruising, is too arrive a few hours earlier, exhausted and with broken gear that will take weeks to repair.

A common problem with experienced crusing sailors, when racing, is too arrive a few hours later, fresh and with nothing broken, but at the end of the fleet.

Doing both teaches the flexibility when to shift gear.
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Old 27-03-2014, 12:46   #38
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Re: Racing vs Cruising

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A common problem with experienced crusing sailors, when racing, is too arrive a few hours later, fresh and with nothing broken, but at the end of the fleet.
Yeah but then we argue the handicap..........


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Old 27-03-2014, 16:10   #39
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Re: Racing vs Cruising

Say what you want about racers, but the fact is they just know more when it comes to what the boat can do, what the boat can handle, and how the winds will affects it.

NASCAR drivers for example know how to save wear on their tires when they need to. Racers know how to take care of a boat when not racing, but speaking of racing here is one of the best races ever.

Team New Zealand has yet to lose a race in this America's Cup. Team Australia is the slower boat:

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Old 27-03-2014, 16:24   #40
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Re: Racing vs Cruising

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Say what you want about racers, but the fact is they just know more when it comes to what the boat can do, what the boat can handle, and how the winds will affects it.

NASCAR drivers for example know how to save wear on their tires when they need to. Racers know how to take care of a boat when not racing, but speaking of racing here is one of the best races ever.

Team New Zealand has yet to lose a race in this America's Cup. Team Australia is the slower boat:



Racers are supposed to know and stay at the limits. Be it a boat or a marathon runner. They are pretty hard on their parts but competing fulfills a special need. A marathon runner won't necessarily know physiology nor will a grinder know rigging, navigation or aerodynamics.

I have been involved in many races of various kinds during my youth and I trim my sails a little better when other boats are on the horizon.

Given the choice between better speed or smoother ride when sailing?

I'll take my time.
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Old 27-03-2014, 16:52   #41
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Re: Racing vs Cruising

[QUOTE=Cap Erict3;1503459] A marathon runner won't necessarily know physiology nor will a grinder know rigging, navigation or aerodynamics.
QUOTE]

Yep, but I was talking small boat racing where YOU call all the shots.

I raced on several with my son when he was 15 and under. The last 7 years on a singlehanded boat capable of speeds in the mid 20s.

You as skipper have to know everything to compete at a high level which in Pensacola/Ft Walton Beach, Florida the level is very high.

My point is that racing small boats be they monohull or catamaran teach you tons because when you pull a "string" something happens NOW! Whereas on a big ole expensive monohull you do not get to learn these tricks because everything is so slow and you have no boats nearby to judge if what you did made a difference.

Plus when racing you have to know where the current is and it's direction, where the wind is around the course, when to tack, favored side of the start line, where to set your mast rake and prebend, etc

Here is my last catamaran. Single handers usually do not run the jib although I have on several occasions during distance races. Sometimes it was great, but if the wind got too high, I usually pitch poled. I did have cam cleats installed on both hulls though to hold the spinnaker sheet when I needed to let it go.

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Old 27-03-2014, 17:00   #42
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Re: Racing vs Cruising

[QUOTE=thomm225;1503482]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cap Erict3 View Post
A marathon runner won't necessarily know physiology nor will a grinder know rigging, navigation or aerodynamics.
QUOTE]


My point is that racing small boats be they monohull or catamaran teach you tons because when you pull a "string" something happens NOW! Whereas on a big ole expensive monohull you do not get to learn these tricks because everything is so slow and you have no boats nearby to judge if what you did made a difference.

Plus when racing you have to know where the current is and it's direction, where the wind is around the course, when to tack, favored side of the start line, where to set your mast rake and prebend, etc

Here is my last catamaran. Single handers usually do not run the jib although I have on several occasions during distance races. Sometimes it was great, but if the wind got too high, I usually pitch poled.


I fully agree that nothing teaches sail boat handling like a small boat. I turned turtle more than a few times.
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Old 27-03-2014, 17:00   #43
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Re: Racing vs Cruising

So this should be familiar to you..........see video.

We started with the basic Hobie 16s (2), then went to a NACRA 6.0, then I got the NACRA F-17 single handed boat with spinnaker.

Again you learn quick since a NARCA F-17 weighs around 300lbs and has the same sail area as my 6600lb Bristol 27.

I guess I am not only preaching racing as a great way to learn and be a really efficient sailor but small boat racing where YOU call the shots

Not getting on a big boat and being told every move to make. You learn nothing like that:

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Old 27-03-2014, 17:03   #44
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Re: Racing vs Cruising

I'm all for racing as long as motorsailing to weather is legal....
Actually the best racing is with cruising friends and when they are to weather. If your exhaust outlet is to lee, you can start the engine and just idle enough to make your boat outpoint them by 10-15 degrees and a knot faster! really pissses them off and fun to watch them doing all the trimming etc trying to figure out what's wrong.
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Old 27-03-2014, 17:31   #45
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Re: Racing vs Cruising

I love cruising and racing.

My experience is more than 1500 hours (5 years) racing keel boats, over 15 000 miles cruising with a dozen or more owners, not huge but not small.

What I have noticed is the owners who have never raced generally don't really know how to get the most out of their boats and some of them have come up with there own ideas of sail trim which make no sense at all and can be very frustrating to sail with...

Owners who haven't raced can tend to be ignorant (and afraid) about launching, running and dousing spinakers, use of jib cars, travelers, sail twist, the slot, halyard tension, weather helm, backwind on the main, running square in light wind usually slow and uncomfortable, not realising that the straight line route is not always the fastest and different ways to run sheets etc.

Racing teaches you so much so quickly from so many skilled people. Not all racers are maniacs.

Sure cruising requires a different mindset and skills but there is nothing like racing for fine tuning sail trim etc. Without racing I would be a pretty poor sailor.
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