Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 13-02-2018, 18:07   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 45
Ownership documentation question

As I said in another post, I'm in discussions on the purchase of a Bavaria 37 and seem to recall having read somewhere that, in the event that anyone decides to go cruising to faraway lands - thinking Australia or the Pacific isles - then you have to take all ownership papers with you and that these should show every change of ownership as far back as the original purchase when the boat was new.

In this case, the current owner is only the second owner but doesn't think he received the original documentation from the original owner when he purchased the boat.

Now, I have to say, that I'm not thinking of doing any such ocean passages myself but, thinking ahead to the possibility of me selling the boat at some time in the future, any new owner might want to do such voyages so I wouldn't want a lack of paperwork to prevent any such sale of the boat.

I gather that the reason for some country's customs staff wanting this full documentation is so that it can be seen that all relevant taxes have been paid and there's no question about any tax being levied by the country you're visiting.

Please tell me if I've got this completely wrong or otherwise.....
Deryck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-02-2018, 18:33   #2
֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 15,136
Re: Ownership documentation question

Never heard of it, in my limited experience.

The only valid reason for any official to want to see more than YOUR current proof of title (i.e. documentation) is because your are being questioned as to taxes that have been paid or may still be due. i.e. if you are a resident or visitor to a zone that has VAT tax, and some official wants to see whether it has been paid. Or whether an import duty has ever been paid.

And in those cases, you still would not need "everything", you would only need sufficient papers to confirm that all relevant taxes and duties had been paid. If you want to snow someone by handing them a box of papers and saying "Have a good time" that's all well and good, but it sounds like you've been talking to someone with a hoarding disorder and a case of bureaucratophobia.
hellosailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-02-2018, 19:31   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 45
Re: Ownership documentation question

That's exactly what my question was aimed at.

In NZ, the original purchaser when buying the boat new will pay GST (goods and services tax - equivalent to VAT) but, unless that purchaser is a company which can claim the GST back as a business expense, any purchaser can't pass on the GST element of the total price to subsequent owners.

But I was thinking that if, it had to be shown that GST had been paid then the only way to prove this would be to have a copy of the original invoice from the original owner.

Or am I missing something?
Deryck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-02-2018, 19:44   #4
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2008
Boat: Trident marine Voyager 30
Posts: 814
Re: Ownership documentation question

I doubt there are many boats that has a complete set of records from new.
I don't have any documents from the previous owners apart from proof of deregistration from SSR, next owner is not getting any papers from me except proof of deregistration.
Anders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-02-2018, 21:40   #5
Marine Service Provider
 
boatpoker's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Port Credit, Ontario or Bahamas
Boat: Benford 38 Fantail Cruiser
Posts: 7,060
Re: Ownership documentation question

I've never been asked for anything other than the current registry.
If you have current registry, that alone would show that your government has accepted the provenance of the vessel and issued registry in your name.
__________________
If you're not laughing, you're not doin' it right.
boatpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-02-2018, 23:26   #6
֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 15,136
Re: Ownership documentation question

You are losing something in translation.

"In NZ, the original purchaser when buying the boat new will pay GST (goods and services tax - equivalent to VAT)"
Okay, what's that got to do with subsequent purchasers of the vessel? If the vessel was NZ flagged, surely they've got the records of that and you don't need to show them.

" but, unless that purchaser is a company which can claim the GST back as a business expense, any purchaser can't pass on the GST element of the total price to subsequent owners."
I'm unclear what "pass on the GMT element" means. You mean, tey pass on the credit for havin paid the GMT? Since you're not a business, that wouldn't matter anyway, would it?

"But I was thinking that if, it had to be shown that GST had been paid then the only way to prove this would be to have a copy of the original invoice from the original owner."
Again, why would you think it had ot be shown that the GMT ever was paid? And if it ever was paid, again, wouldn't NZ know that simply because they had already previously flagged and titled it, which they wouldn't have done unless it was paid?

Are you just speculating, or has anyone *official* told you that you will need to show proof that GMT was previously paid on the vessel? And if they have told you that, surely they specified what they accept as proof?

Tax authorities generally are quick to actually list their requirements. Speculation is pointless, since they are not required to use the same logic that anyone else would use.
hellosailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-02-2018, 02:24   #7
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 45
Re: Ownership documentation question

Maybe I've misunderstood the situation but I'm sure I've read somewhere that, if you take the boat to some countries you have to have documentation to prove that all relevant taxes have been paid in the country the boat is registered in or else the customs in whatever country you've entered can assume that no tax has been paid and they charge whatever rate of tax is applicable in that country before you can enter.

In my case, tax has only been paid by the original purchaser when the boat was new; the second owner didn't pay GST as it was a private sale from one individual to another; and the same would apply if I buy the boat. This is perfectly OK in NZ.

I just want to be absolutely certain as to what previous documentation I should get with the boat so that, if the boat is sailed to other countries at any time in the future there's no chance of there being any additional tax charge being levied by the customs people there.
Deryck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-02-2018, 03:36   #8
Registered User
 
fxykty's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Indonesia
Boat: Outremer 55L
Posts: 3,804
Re: Ownership documentation question

You won’t have to pay any tax anywhere unless you decide to import your boat there, which can happen if you change your residence to that place or leave the boat there longer than the temporary entry period (e.g. in Fiji your boat can stay up to 18 months as a visitor, but if it stays longer it is deemed an import and you have to pay tax).

It sounds like you are NZ resident and you are buying a boat that has already been imported into NZ. All you need is the bill of sale. If you are keeping the existing registration then you need to change the ownership - that requires the previous owners’s signature as well as yours. Check out https://www.maritimenz.govt.nz/comme...hip-change.asp. The procedure and forms are different depending on whether the boat is Part A or Part B registered.

If you want to change the registration to another jurisdiction (for a NZ boat, that could be to avoid the hassle of Cat 1 inspections when you want to go to the islands) then you need the previous owner to deregister from the NZ registry and you use that and the bill of sale to register somewhere else. Note that changing the registration does not change the import tax status of the boat.

In NZ there is no need to prove that the boat has previously paid the GST as the only way it can be legally resident in NZ is if and only if the GST has been paid already. A boat that has not had the GST paid is on a temporary entry permit and only by importing it and paying GST and possibly duty will the boat be allowed to stay permanently. That status is for the life of the boat until it is imported somewhere else.

I’ve never heard of any country that you enter levying a tax on behalf of the country that you’ve left. The clearance documentation that you get when you leave a country is all the proof you need that you left that country in good standing. You can bet that you won’t receive clearance if your boat owes any tax in that country.

To reiterate, all you need is the bill of sale and the change of ownership forms. That is all that your boat’s next owner will need as well. Relax.
fxykty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-02-2018, 13:36   #9
Registered User
 
fxykty's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Indonesia
Boat: Outremer 55L
Posts: 3,804
Re: Ownership documentation question

Also, don’t forget to get your personal VHF callsign (get that from Coastguard NZ), if you don’t already have one. It is illegal in NZ to operate a VHF without a callsign.

If your boat has an SSB and you plan to go offshore then you’ll need a ship’s station licence. That supersedes the VHF license. But not needed if you don’t use the SSB and don’t go offshore.

If the boat has an EPIRB, then contact http://beacons.org.nz to register or update the registration of your EPIRB.
fxykty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-02-2018, 15:01   #10
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 45
Re: Ownership documentation question

Thanks for that info. That seems to be more definitive. I'll check with the current owner and take it from there.

Cheers
Deryck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-02-2018, 15:07   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Irish Sea
Posts: 1,321
Images: 7
Re: Ownership documentation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deryck View Post
you have to take all ownership papers with you and that these should show every change of ownership as far back as the original purchase when the boat was new.
I wonder how many 20+year old boats sail with a complete chain of bills & builder's certificate around the world...

Btw what differece does it make if you sail to NZ or to Turkey from e.g. Greece? Legally nothing...
__________________
Useful as a fireproof bottom paint...
GTom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-02-2018, 16:12   #12
Registered User
 
fxykty's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Indonesia
Boat: Outremer 55L
Posts: 3,804
Re: Ownership documentation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTom View Post
I wonder how many 20+year old boats sail with a complete chain of bills & builder's certificate around the world...



Btw what differece does it make if you sail to NZ or to Turkey from e.g. Greece? Legally nothing...

You don’t need any previous ownership documents - the vessel’s current registration certificate plus your clearance documents together have all the information needed for just about any purpose.

The only building certification that some jurisdictions need is the CE plate, which is affixed to the vessel and usually duplicated in the owner’s manual.
fxykty is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
documentation, men, ownership

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Question for American expats re: USCG documentation Canibul Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 21 26-04-2014 18:10
Documentation question sailcruiser Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 8 07-07-2013 09:12
Documentation "case processing dates" page question. endoftheroad Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 11 20-06-2013 05:23
Documentation Change Question redhead78 General Sailing Forum 5 03-02-2011 11:38
1st few weeks of boat ownership mpk Multihull Sailboats 17 14-05-2004 09:23

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:25.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.