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Old 13-02-2018, 18:07   #1
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Ownership documentation question

As I said in another post, I'm in discussions on the purchase of a Bavaria 37 and seem to recall having read somewhere that, in the event that anyone decides to go cruising to faraway lands - thinking Australia or the Pacific isles - then you have to take all ownership papers with you and that these should show every change of ownership as far back as the original purchase when the boat was new.

In this case, the current owner is only the second owner but doesn't think he received the original documentation from the original owner when he purchased the boat.

Now, I have to say, that I'm not thinking of doing any such ocean passages myself but, thinking ahead to the possibility of me selling the boat at some time in the future, any new owner might want to do such voyages so I wouldn't want a lack of paperwork to prevent any such sale of the boat.

I gather that the reason for some country's customs staff wanting this full documentation is so that it can be seen that all relevant taxes have been paid and there's no question about any tax being levied by the country you're visiting.

Please tell me if I've got this completely wrong or otherwise.....
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Old 13-02-2018, 18:33   #2
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Re: Ownership documentation question

Never heard of it, in my limited experience.

The only valid reason for any official to want to see more than YOUR current proof of title (i.e. documentation) is because your are being questioned as to taxes that have been paid or may still be due. i.e. if you are a resident or visitor to a zone that has VAT tax, and some official wants to see whether it has been paid. Or whether an import duty has ever been paid.

And in those cases, you still would not need "everything", you would only need sufficient papers to confirm that all relevant taxes and duties had been paid. If you want to snow someone by handing them a box of papers and saying "Have a good time" that's all well and good, but it sounds like you've been talking to someone with a hoarding disorder and a case of bureaucratophobia.
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Old 13-02-2018, 19:31   #3
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Re: Ownership documentation question

That's exactly what my question was aimed at.

In NZ, the original purchaser when buying the boat new will pay GST (goods and services tax - equivalent to VAT) but, unless that purchaser is a company which can claim the GST back as a business expense, any purchaser can't pass on the GST element of the total price to subsequent owners.

But I was thinking that if, it had to be shown that GST had been paid then the only way to prove this would be to have a copy of the original invoice from the original owner.

Or am I missing something?
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Old 13-02-2018, 19:44   #4
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Re: Ownership documentation question

I doubt there are many boats that has a complete set of records from new.
I don't have any documents from the previous owners apart from proof of deregistration from SSR, next owner is not getting any papers from me except proof of deregistration.
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Old 13-02-2018, 21:40   #5
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Re: Ownership documentation question

I've never been asked for anything other than the current registry.
If you have current registry, that alone would show that your government has accepted the provenance of the vessel and issued registry in your name.
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Old 13-02-2018, 23:26   #6
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Re: Ownership documentation question

You are losing something in translation.

"In NZ, the original purchaser when buying the boat new will pay GST (goods and services tax - equivalent to VAT)"
Okay, what's that got to do with subsequent purchasers of the vessel? If the vessel was NZ flagged, surely they've got the records of that and you don't need to show them.

" but, unless that purchaser is a company which can claim the GST back as a business expense, any purchaser can't pass on the GST element of the total price to subsequent owners."
I'm unclear what "pass on the GMT element" means. You mean, tey pass on the credit for havin paid the GMT? Since you're not a business, that wouldn't matter anyway, would it?

"But I was thinking that if, it had to be shown that GST had been paid then the only way to prove this would be to have a copy of the original invoice from the original owner."
Again, why would you think it had ot be shown that the GMT ever was paid? And if it ever was paid, again, wouldn't NZ know that simply because they had already previously flagged and titled it, which they wouldn't have done unless it was paid?

Are you just speculating, or has anyone *official* told you that you will need to show proof that GMT was previously paid on the vessel? And if they have told you that, surely they specified what they accept as proof?

Tax authorities generally are quick to actually list their requirements. Speculation is pointless, since they are not required to use the same logic that anyone else would use.
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Old 14-02-2018, 02:24   #7
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Re: Ownership documentation question

Maybe I've misunderstood the situation but I'm sure I've read somewhere that, if you take the boat to some countries you have to have documentation to prove that all relevant taxes have been paid in the country the boat is registered in or else the customs in whatever country you've entered can assume that no tax has been paid and they charge whatever rate of tax is applicable in that country before you can enter.

In my case, tax has only been paid by the original purchaser when the boat was new; the second owner didn't pay GST as it was a private sale from one individual to another; and the same would apply if I buy the boat. This is perfectly OK in NZ.

I just want to be absolutely certain as to what previous documentation I should get with the boat so that, if the boat is sailed to other countries at any time in the future there's no chance of there being any additional tax charge being levied by the customs people there.
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Old 15-02-2018, 03:36   #8
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Re: Ownership documentation question

You wonít have to pay any tax anywhere unless you decide to import your boat there, which can happen if you change your residence to that place or leave the boat there longer than the temporary entry period (e.g. in Fiji your boat can stay up to 18 months as a visitor, but if it stays longer it is deemed an import and you have to pay tax).

It sounds like you are NZ resident and you are buying a boat that has already been imported into NZ. All you need is the bill of sale. If you are keeping the existing registration then you need to change the ownership - that requires the previous ownersís signature as well as yours. Check out https://www.maritimenz.govt.nz/comme...hip-change.asp. The procedure and forms are different depending on whether the boat is Part A or Part B registered.

If you want to change the registration to another jurisdiction (for a NZ boat, that could be to avoid the hassle of Cat 1 inspections when you want to go to the islands) then you need the previous owner to deregister from the NZ registry and you use that and the bill of sale to register somewhere else. Note that changing the registration does not change the import tax status of the boat.

In NZ there is no need to prove that the boat has previously paid the GST as the only way it can be legally resident in NZ is if and only if the GST has been paid already. A boat that has not had the GST paid is on a temporary entry permit and only by importing it and paying GST and possibly duty will the boat be allowed to stay permanently. That status is for the life of the boat until it is imported somewhere else.

Iíve never heard of any country that you enter levying a tax on behalf of the country that youíve left. The clearance documentation that you get when you leave a country is all the proof you need that you left that country in good standing. You can bet that you wonít receive clearance if your boat owes any tax in that country.

To reiterate, all you need is the bill of sale and the change of ownership forms. That is all that your boatís next owner will need as well. Relax.
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Old 16-02-2018, 13:36   #9
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Re: Ownership documentation question

Also, donít forget to get your personal VHF callsign (get that from Coastguard NZ), if you donít already have one. It is illegal in NZ to operate a VHF without a callsign.

If your boat has an SSB and you plan to go offshore then youíll need a shipís station licence. That supersedes the VHF license. But not needed if you donít use the SSB and donít go offshore.

If the boat has an EPIRB, then contact http://beacons.org.nz to register or update the registration of your EPIRB.
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Old 18-02-2018, 15:01   #10
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Re: Ownership documentation question

Thanks for that info. That seems to be more definitive. I'll check with the current owner and take it from there.

Cheers
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Old 18-02-2018, 15:07   #11
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Re: Ownership documentation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deryck View Post
you have to take all ownership papers with you and that these should show every change of ownership as far back as the original purchase when the boat was new.
I wonder how many 20+year old boats sail with a complete chain of bills & builder's certificate around the world...

Btw what differece does it make if you sail to NZ or to Turkey from e.g. Greece? Legally nothing...
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Old 18-02-2018, 16:12   #12
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Re: Ownership documentation question

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTom View Post
I wonder how many 20+year old boats sail with a complete chain of bills & builder's certificate around the world...



Btw what differece does it make if you sail to NZ or to Turkey from e.g. Greece? Legally nothing...

You donít need any previous ownership documents - the vesselís current registration certificate plus your clearance documents together have all the information needed for just about any purpose.

The only building certification that some jurisdictions need is the CE plate, which is affixed to the vessel and usually duplicated in the ownerís manual.
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