Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Delancy

Sorry, I misunderstood you. Not sure what was unfair about my comment though, but maybe you misunderstood me. My comment was to mom and pop cruiser who can't afford a slip, not the Frenchies. But, whatever. Cheers

I thought you were 'Popping' the town... but.. as u say.. Whatever..

[Delancey]

Originally Posted by Sand Castle

1. Look at a chart. Oriental is on the ICW. Both Wash and NB are 30 miles off of it.
2. You sound like you've never been to any of these places, so I'll chalk that up as ignorance. The towns you mention are not cookie-cutter.
3. If a cruiser goes from New York to Florida, as they frequently do, covering 80 miles a day they might arrive in south FL in about 3 weeks. Maybe a little less. So lets say 21x$80/night is $1680 - for slip fees all the way. Cheap ones in some cases.
4. That $1680 is a fat month of living expenses on the boat and the cruisers would rather save that on fuel (about 450 gallons of diesel), or chow (about 150 light shrimp kebab dinners cooked on the boat, with beer)

Oriental is one of those towns, very chill, where its a nice place to spend a little money from the kiddie and grab a pleasant beer in a bar frequented by other sailors and cruisers.

I've been to all of the places you mention, but only one of them is directly on the snow-bird route.

Easy there big fella. Don't mistake my sarcasm for sincerity.

At the core of it I feel it's most unfortunate that those would prefer to anchor out and dink in to shore to enjoy what Oriental has to offer no longer have the option to do so. That a few bad apples exacerbate a bad situation has little bearing on the root cause of this, the marina development.

Be advised I am exactly that guy with limited means who prefers to avoid marinas. I have never advocated for the anchorage fiends other than to point out that most of the planet works on a first come first serve basis and that life is not fair.

I fully agree they have overstayed their welcome and should have taken a hint a long time ago but also point out that in the absence of laws prohibiting their activities, there is no basis for them to be compelled to move and maybe the town should quit their bitching.

[Hud3]

Delancy,

I find your posts in this thread rather incredulous, base on your initial post in the thread you started, bitching about a boat that was tied up to a dock in your marina...

"Dock Lines will be Cut!"
Is it within a marina owners rights to cut dock lines and set a trespassing vessels lines adrift? What about locking the offending vessel to the dock with a chain and holding it for ransom? Or maybe call a towing company and let the vessel's owner pay up for salvage?

A recent incident at our marina has me wondering about trespassing and how it relates to waterfront infrastructure.

The long and short of it is a guy from the marina across the way left his boat uninvited and unattended at our marina for a couple hours in such a manner as restricted navigation and hindered access to some our marina tenants causing them to risk a potential grounding to get in to their slips.

The vessel in question was not in need of assistance and this is not an isolated incident. The neighboring marina is geographically challenged by being separated from town by a canal that is a long walk around.

As a result we see a lot of strangers doing touch and go, landing dinks, or even leaving boats unattended. They often prop the gate unlocked which creates a security risk for everyone here and there have been thefts in the past. We've changed the gate from a code to a fob system and chase them away but they keep coming.

I generally regard these individuals, based on my interactions with them, as being completely selfish and self-serving with poor manners and an air of entitlement.

I will be the first person to admit to coming into a strange harbor late at night, tying up at the gas dock or grabbing an empty mooring, and leaving at the crack of dawn. It might not be right but I think it's pretty harmless.

However, the last thing I would do is leave my boat unattended and uninvited at a stranger's dock and frankly I think people who do deserve to pay tow guy for salvage.

An analogy I can think of is someone driving down the street but they can't find parking and at their convenience they decide to park in your driveway instead. You come home and can't park your car so what do you do? Call the cops, they write an ticket and the car gets towed. Anyone know the law on this subject?

[krafthaus]

Originally Posted by psneeld

all I want is a fair shake at anchoring in Oriental when passing through

I'm not sure I'd ever want to stop in Oriental. Not sure if I should feel sorry for that town or not.

This is a sad and sorry thread that has digressed into a circular argument. Everyone should stop and move on.

Too much time has been spent on this drivel and there are so many other positive things people could be putting their energy into.

What a wonderful world - LOUIS ARMSTRONG. - YouTube

[zeehag]

considering the way of the united fascist states of america and the facts that most cities in usa are ditching alleged rights to anchor despite the federal allowance--NOT RIGHT to ahor in federal waters, and despite the fact that moored boats are taxed fro property tax--a topic landlubbers have no clue about---there are too few anchor outs in usa to make a constituency.
research san diego and the anchoring problems we had over th e past 20 or so years. those problems are now on the heads of the moored boats, as folks just do not understand the property taxation of moored bosats.
however, that is only one of the problems as land dwellers perceive it...
whereas we used to be beautiful and relaxing scenery we are now listed as terrorists, as we are considered transient and not under their thumb.....
so--as in usa our alleged rights are no more--why do you consider anchoring a right??? usa is doing all it can to limit mobility and CONTROL the population.
the constitution has been being destroyed systematically since the invention of patriot act, waaay before it was called into play after 9-11.
face it folks--
someone long ago in this thread mentioned tha tperhaps onl land owners shoul dhave the vote--this is as it was when the founding fathers set up the plan dan effected it---landowners were only voters. then over time we decided this was a bad idea and included sharecroppers, women, and blacke. go figger. women could vote---whodaknown...ok and also--- with the bleding hearts coming in and making a mes s of the alleged civil rights problems in that allowance---mor esouls voting meant less ability to control outcome. electoral college makes sure this out of control thing --omg--people controlling gove??? not allowed---the nation was never n=meant to be a democracy--there is no such thing as democracy.. our nation was set up a sa constitutional repuvblic. get used to it--yoiu do not have any say in who is or gains what elected office .lol get used to it--corporations are now individuals--lol---SAILING IS NOT A RIGHT. ANCHORING IS NOT A RIGHT.
suck it up as we had to do in san diego and anchorage alaska an dother places in usa that a re restrited in anchoring. this is how it is and how it is going to be.. get used toit. soitis inconvenient... what you going to do--get a petition circulated?? and how many signatories will be listed--do you think all 20 anchorers will sign it?? do you think all 20 of you wll have any kind of f=voice in the resolution of your alleged problem??? research what is happening all over usa. it isnt going to get better. we havent the population to support the resistance of nonpayment for anchoring---just move. get a job elsewhere and relocate.. do you think you will be missed?? hell no..

sorryt guys--it s how stuff is happening---we are on terrorist lists as transients and boat owning relocators at will. we do not need to do anything to get onto that list--we there by nature. we are resistent to governmental intervention in our allegedly free lives.
sorry nothing is free.. nothing.
you want free---sail to mexico. sail away---go out of usa. it is not going to get better any time soon. usa is being run by house of fascism unincorporated. good luck.

do research on the san diego anchoring problems--anchorage 8 was the label they used on that place---how it went is how other places are going to go. glorietta bay is also a nice place to anchor, but is only a restricted locale now with 72 hour only limit, 2 times monthly, as entire sd bay is now restricted.
good luck.

free anchoring is a thing of the past in usa. it is not a RIGHT but an allowance. we were allowed to anchor--we no longer are allowed to anchor--never was a right.


and, what a previous poster wrote---

Too much time has been spent on this drivel and there are so many other positive things people could be putting their energy into.

[Delancey]

Originally Posted by Hud3

Delancy,

I find your posts in this thread rather incredulous, base on your initial post in the thread you started, bitching about a boat that was tied up to a dock in your marina...

Meh. Incredulous? Per Merriam Webster -unwilling to admit or accept what is offered to be true. You probably were thinking of some other word? Maybe you were thinking inconsistent? Not sure if I would agree with you there either.

My concise postition on the two different topics are as follows-

Dock lines - leaving your boat unattended for the sake of your own convenience at the expense of others is a dick move, especially when the people you are inconveniencing paid to be there.

Oriental- the town allowed to be built a marina development that encroached on a historical anchorage for the sake of short term gains of the few and is now bitching about the consequences of their own actions.

What is incredulous about that?

[tamicatana]

How about this:

when the town allowed the development, they may have assumed, however incorrectly, that people would be decent enough to share the now limited anchorage resource.

alas.

[Delancey]

Originally Posted by tamicatana

How about this:

when the town allowed the development, they may have assumed, however incorrectly, that people would be decent enough to share the now limited anchorage resource.

alas.

Yeah maybe, seems to me like fairly naive thinking to appropriate a limited resource and assume people are going to play nice and share the scarce remainder.

[Julie Mor]

Let's see if I have this right... (cont'd)

11. Oriental allowed a marina to be built in what used to be a free anchorage area.

12. Boaters who want to stop over in Oriental but don't want to pay slip fees now have to compete for less free anchorage spaces.

13. The marina is happily collecting fees and boaters are now squabbling amongst themselves over the now smaller anchorage created by the new marina.

14. Not all people commenting in this thread are or ever have been boaters. So maybe they just want to influence the scenery in the harbor.

[Blue Crab]

An earlier post mentioned ~ $70 for a slip. I'd have to be pretty desperate to pay that. Perhaps the real snowbirds can but surely they can't be happy about it. I'd think a transient slip for a more reasonable ~ $20 would encourage the passersby to stay a day or two. And spend real money in the restaurants. I'd go $20 for the convenience. Of course then the marina would be used, maintenance would go up, toilet tissue would get stolen.

[Mark Johnson]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

I don't want to repost Julie Mor's comments again, but I would dispute her characterization of this issue.

1. I own no home other than my boat, characterizing the issue as owners with land homes versus owners without land homes is not accurate. I attempted to use the harbor and could not due to the way the boats were anchored in the harbor, not by the number of boats. I do not dispute the legality of their anchorage. IMO it is terribly rude to the rest of us with tall masts that don't have the option of going under the bridge, to hog the small sheltered anchorage when they have short masts and could easily use the area behind the bridge. It is also terribly rude to anchor in a manner that precludes efficient use of the available space, whether you are anchoring long or short term. When I am going to anchor for an extended period in one place I attempt to anchor in the least obtrusive place possible. I don't put myself in the center of the anchorage and start setting out multiple anchor lines fouling the anchorage for others. Since I am a cruiser, I consider an extended stay more than a couple of days.

2. I would characterize Towndock.net as a small town online newspaper rather than simply a blog. The owners of towndock seem to have written a short but factual article on the french boat which I did not read as positive or negative. They have published a lot of letters to the editors from citizens of Oriental and elsewhere with varying opinions on the presence of these boats in the harbor for a long period, including from the OP of this thread. I don't see that the owners of town dock have taken a position on this, but are simply reporting on the issue, including efforts of some persons in the town to enable the town to put in long term anchoring restrictions.

3. The Oriental habor Marina is not a for profit entity. It is a condominium association (dockuminium if you prefer) which if memory serves me correctly is prohibited from making a profit by NC law. I'm sure the original development was for profit, but the current owners, some of whom I know are simply boat owners and this is their home marina. If you look at the "pre" marina pictures posted earlier, you might note that the boats are largely anchored in the same area that they anchor today. I'm told, but don't have personal knowledge, that the area where the marina was built was very shallow and no one anchored there anyway. I did not boat in the area before the marina was built, but perhaps someone who did can confirm this or dispute it. Some owners apparently make their slips available to transients when they are not using them. My understanding is that virtually no one is making a bunch of money off of this. A few people manage to off set some of their costs such as tax payments, interest, and condominium dues.

Last but not least I would disagree with the OP's definition of courtesy. If someone has to ask you to be courteous then you are not.

Very intelligent, factual, and well written Bill...

REGARDING THE ORIENTAL ANCHORAGE ANARCHISTS:
I care a little bit about "ugly" boats giving us all a bad rap by association, AND I care a bit more that they're LONG TERM illegally shitting in the River.

What I REALLY care about, however, is that I can't make weekend cruises to Oriental from New Bern anymore, OR stop over in Oriental on my way to Ocracoke or Cape Lookout. Nor can the "snow birds" or anyone else traveling the ICW, use this one anchorage. This "now unavailable" anchorage is the ONE best and most logical stop over (with amenities on shore within walking distance), for MANY miles in all directions. This is a big deal for the thousands of cruisers that get there at the end of the day, and can't find room.

These 3 utterly inconsiderate boats and their owners, have stayed WAY too long, AND taken up the entire anchorage, by doing exactly what you said, Bill, (and me earlier), Multiple anchor moorings...

Getting proper dockage for us is not just too expensive, we don't fit! We are 21' wide, and with our huge skeg & single 18 HP engine, we have a 150' turning radius. So... we haven't stopped over by boat at Oriental in years!

Anchoring rights and "Hard times" has nothing to do with anything here! After setting out on my first self built cruising boat in the 70s, I had NO dinghy, and I got back and forth from living on the hook in Key West, by swimming the side stroke (in a strong current) with a long set of free diving fins... (even carrying groceries or my laundry out of the water with my free hand)! I had no more than $50 to my name most of the time as well, and I never got any government handouts either! Nevertheless, I would NOT have blocked others from using a small transient anchorage, because of my "hard times". I would've and did, always find a way to get my needs met, that in NO way infringed on the rights of others.

Now that I am too old for such foolishness... I would STILL find a way to live my anchored out lifestyle, that didn't infringe on the anchoring rights of others. It is called "common courtesy", and these "anchoring anarchist" obviously don't have any!

The obvious issue here is that these folks have anchored incorrectly, in a very small space, and stayed for FAR FAR too long, considering the extreme public need for the space available in the anchorage. This ISN'T a large long term liveaboard anchorage as I said, it is a small short term stop over, for the numerous transients that pass through in route...

The fact that this has garnered soo much discussion here is ridiculous. This is a
"no-brainer"! These folks in the Oriental anchorage are inconsiderate of the countless others that would like to anchor here, plain and simple. They have overstayed their welcome as I said... a LONG time ago, and should take themselves and their boats, (hard times or not), to a place more appropriate to what they are doing. Permanently moving in here, is shameful.

This IS "Cruisers Forum" btw:
Past posts from cruisers that don't really "cruise", as well as those from folks that do but have never stayed at this particular anchorage, or even seen it first hand, are irrelevant opinions.

Pardon my being pedantic here, but THIS IS NOT ABOUT ANCHORING RIGHTS, LAND VS BOAT LIFE, HAVES VS HAVE NOTS, DEMs VS REPs, Or ANYTHING other than BEING RESPONSIBLE, and exercising consideration of others in all aspects of our lives!

PS... Prior to this 3 boat long term liveaboard anchorage takeover in Oriental, a cruiser could expect to squeeze in there to stay over for the night, 95% of the time, then move on... With everyone laying to one hook, and a few boats barely protected by the breakwater, about 8 or possibly even 10 cruisers, (with considerable skill), could fit in there. The key was anchoring skills and their moving on in a day or two. I used to always find a spot to anchor in the past.
You will notice, that there are a lot of contrary comments from folks that have never anchored here, or they would know this to be the case!

[Doodles]

Originally Posted by Mark Johnson

...
Pardon my being pedantic here, but THIS IS NOT ABOUT ANCHORING RIGHTS, LAND VS BOAT LIFE, HAVES VS HAVE NOTS, DEMs VS REPs, Or ANYTHING other than BEING RESPONSIBLE, and exercising consideration of others in all aspects of our lives!

....Some must have never learned to share as a child.

[Captain Bill]

Originally Posted by scoobert

please proof read before posting.
your post was unintelligible.

If your going to be a long term participant in the cruisers forum you just have to learn to read Zee....

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by Delancy

Oh wait, I see where you prefer to stay at the "free" town dock if you can't find a spot to anchor.

Sounds to me like you are also the type of person the town sought to discourage from visiting when they gave up the anchorage for the marina development.

Maybe you could try New Bern or Washington? I hear they are both lovely towns not at all blighted by industry with plenty of quaint fishing village charm!

You don't know anything about me...so that pretty much sums up every post of yours when you post stuff like that...

I have had financial difficulties too...but yesterday I was painting my boat so Oriental would welcome me and not associate me with others that may NOT be so welcome anymore (tough one to figure out for all the rocket scientists posting here).

Your interpretation of the marina eliminating anchorage space (based on third hand knowledge) is still way off base...probably have never been there.

And lastly...you don't seem know crap about cruising. Even the richest people I know stay at free docks or anchor out if their mood is such. Location, situation and other factors play into using a marina..like needing the services they supply or not.

[Captain Bill]

Originally Posted by Julie Mor

Let's see if I have this right... (cont'd)

11. Oriental allowed a marina to be built in what used to be a free anchorage area.

12. Boaters who want to stop over in Oriental but don't want to pay slip fees now have to compete for less free anchorage spaces.

13. The marina is happily collecting fees and boaters are now squabbling amongst themselves over the now smaller anchorage created by the new marina.

14. Not all people commenting in this thread are or ever have been boaters. So maybe they just want to influence the scenery in the harbor.

Not correct on 11, 13 and 14.

11. Oriental did not allow anything. Oriental had no more control over the use of the anchorage then than it has now. Marina Permitting is a state and federal process. The town might have been a stakeholder, buit they did not make the decision.

13. The dockmaster collects slip rent for slip owners that allow their slips to be used by transients when they are away. This is not a commercial for profit marina. This is not a business in the way most people think of a marina business it is a condominium association.

14. I don't see any posts from non-boaters. Some non-boaters have been quoted from other sources such as letters to the editor on town dock and the CAMA document, but I have not seen those people actually participating in the thread. Please point one out to me if I missed their post.

I would even somewhat argue that 12 is wrong. The marina has been in existence for over 10 years. The big problem now is that three boats have been taking the anchorage on more or less a permanent basis by anchoring in a manner that fouls the anchorage for other users. The ugly boat and anchoring rights issues are red herrings IMO. I don't care what their boats look like, it is the fouled anchorage that is the problem.