Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

[rourkeh]

I find it interesting listening to all you Americans becoming indignant about your ever decreasing rights in you country. But why are you surprised that cities and towns are curtailing your free access to harbours in the search for the almighty $$. They (local government) see your federal government basically shred your governing constitution with the passage of the patriot act which was read by ONE member of congress out of 435 total before passage, effectively taking away a huge number of your basic rights with the stroke of a pen. The federal government has been caught spying on everyone in the U.S. and for good measure all of its allies as well. Your political process has failed, they are going to shut down the federal government in 11 days because your personally elected representatives can not decide on the most simple of adult decisions to save themselves.
If you look at the rest of the western world these sorts of problems, funnily enough, are not happening as their citizens take there personal liberties a lot more seriously on average and their governments would never get away with this sort of rubbish. Don't get me wrong, I am not bashing America per se, nor do I dislike the U.S.A. I lived in America for many years and loved the place but the corrosive thread running through your country is undermining the very fabric that made you once the great nation the world respected. It all starts with not allowing harmless boaters to anchor for free in their own waters, next thing you know the government is reading your email, searching your home without cause, or running you out of some harbor because they don't like the look of your boat. Slippery slope.

[Captain Bill]

Originally Posted by captain58sailin

Then what? Fly them back to France?

Sure, why not. I am wondering what the French government is doing to help two of it's citizens. In most countries one can simply contact their local consulate or embassy for help in getting you home when something happens that prevents you from doing so by your own means. I know a lady who was shipwrecked in Fiji some years ago. She lost all of her money, passport etc when the boat was lost. She conacted the British embassy and they took care of all the expenses to get her home. Her American companion was not so lucky as he had to pay back a loan from the American embassy. But the bottom line is that both were assisted by their respective governments. It would be interesting to know if the French consulate has even been contacted by the people on the French boat. I suspect if they really wanted to go home they would be there by now, but they might have had to leave their boat behind.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by rourkeh

It all starts with not allowing harmless boaters to anchor for free in their own waters, next thing you know the government is reading your email, searching your home without cause, or running you out of some harbor because they don't like the look of your boat. Slippery slope.

If you read this thread, you'll realize that this isn't about harmless boaters anchoring for free in their own waters, but rather people permanently anchoring near a small town where there is very limited room, and thereby limiting the ability of cruisers to pass through on a visit.

But I agree with your point about becoming more alert to government collection of phone and email data and records.

[boatman61]

If they were to return to France he could sort out his/their pension problems... they have another boat there to live on by all accounts.
In the meantime this boat could be moored or kept at one of the jetty slips the other side of the bridge till they got their act together and could return to pick her up... just a thought..
Worked for me... though I had mine lifted out and kept at SailCraft.

[sailorchic34]

You would not pitch a tent next to a homeless encampment (on public land). So why choose to anchor next to the homeless anchorout. Oriental is an extreme case, but anchorouts are everywhere.

Telling them to move along hardly solves the issue as they will be in the next anchorage you want to go to.

If all the cruisers avoided Oriental for a few years, I pretty much believe the town would do more to make the anchorage available to all.

[Delancey]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

I don't want to repost Julie Mor's comments again, but I would dispute her characterization of this issue.

1. I own no home other than my boat, characterizing the issue as owners with land homes versus owners without land homes is not accurate. I attempted to use the harbor and could not due to the way the boats were anchored in the harbor, not by the number of boats. I do not dispute the legality of their anchorage. IMO it is terribly rude to the rest of us with tall masts that don't have the option of going under the bridge, to hog the small sheltered anchorage when they have short masts and could easily use the area behind the bridge. It is also terribly rude to anchor in a manner that precludes efficient use of the available space, whether you are anchoring long or short term. When I am going to anchor for an extended period in one place I attempt to anchor in the least obtrusive place possible. I don't put myself in the center of the anchorage and start setting out multiple anchor lines fouling the anchorage for others. Since I am a cruiser, I consider an extended stay more than a couple of days.

2. I would characterize Towndock.net as a small town online newspaper rather than simply a blog. The owners of towndock seem to have written a short but factual article on the french boat which I did not read as positive or negative. They have published a lot of letters to the editors from citizens of Oriental and elsewhere with varying opinions on the presence of these boats in the harbor for a long period, including from the OP of this thread. I don't see that the owners of town dock have taken a position on this, but are simply reporting on the issue, including efforts of some persons in the town to enable the town to put in long term anchoring restrictions.

3. The Oriental habor Marina is not a for profit entity. It is a condominium association (dockuminium if you prefer) which if memory serves me correctly is prohibited from making a profit by NC law. I'm sure the original development was for profit, but the current owners, some of whom I know are simply boat owners and this is their home marina. If you look at the "pre" marina pictures posted earlier, you might note that the boats are largely anchored in the same area that they anchor today. I'm told, but don't have personal knowledge, that the area where the marina was built was very shallow and no one anchored there anyway. I did not boat in the area before the marina was built, but perhaps someone who did can confirm this or dispute it. Some owners apparently make their slips available to transients when they are not using them. My understanding is that virtually no one is making a bunch of money off of this. A few people manage to off set some of their costs such as tax payments, interest, and condominium dues.

Last but not least I would disagree with the OP's definition of courtesy. If someone has to ask you to be courteous then you are not.

I would like to point out that many vessels are not as restricted by draft as are keel boats, and that any area suitable to build a marina is very likely also suitable as an anchorage.

Many of our forum members who chose to cruise on mutlihulls and powerboats are now and forever excluded from access to an area considered historically to have been an anchorage since the birth of the town.

Any assertions I have made regarding the marina development enchroaching on the anchorage are based strictly on the statement below made on Towndock.net by John Buck, a self-identified land owner in the community who may or may not be a boater. CAMA being the Coastal Area Management Authority.


"What hasn’t been mentioned is that our tiny harbor is a result of the development of Oriental Marina Harbor several years ago which was permitted by CAMA and presumably blessed by the town of Oriental.

From an economic development standpoint I’m sure it was a good decision for the town, but the development of the marina has taken up precious anchorage space and given our public waters to a for-profit entity in exchange for business/tax revenue. So, we have created this problem."

[lancelot9898]

Two years ago I was in Oriental looking at Oriental Harbor Marina as a possible place to move my boat which at the time was in the Annapolis area. My impressions was that the breakwater was insufficient to provide adequate protection should a cane come a calling. I know that it has survived some low class hurricanes, but should a Cat 3 or above happen with some decent surge....that marina is toast.

[Captain Bill]

Originally Posted by Delancy

I would like to point out that many vessels are not as restricted by draft as are keel boats, and that any area suitable to build a marina is very likely also suitable as an anchorage.

Many of our forum members who chose to cruise on mutlihulls and powerboats are now and forever excluded from access to an area considered historically to have been an anchorage since the birth of the town.

Any assertions I have made regarding the marina development enchroaching on the anchorage are based strictly on the statement below made on Towndock.net by John Buck, a self-identified land owner in the community who may or may not be a boater. CAMA being the Coastal Area Management Authority.

If I am understanding you correctly, you actually do not have any personal knowledge about how deep the water was in the area of the marina. Is that correct? The information I got was from a former resident of Oriental who told me the water there was less than 2 feet deep and virtually a mud flat after the wind blew strongly form the SW for a few days. Even a shallow draft catamaran like a Gemini would have a hard time in there if that report is true. If anyone has actual personal knowledge as to whether this is true or not it might contribute to the conversation. It might be that the the marina did not take anything away from anyone except flounder gigers, I simply don't know for sure. A lot of people seem to be making strong accusations against the marina development. I would just like to know if they are based on fact or speculation. The oldest chart i have of the area is 2005 which is after the marina, perhaps a member with a pre-mairina chart could report on what depth is shown in that area.

[Captain Bill]

Originally Posted by lancelot9898

Two years ago I was in Oriental looking at Oriental Harbor Marina as a possible place to move my boat which at the time was in the Annapolis area. My impressions was that the breakwater was insufficient to provide adequate protection should a cane come a calling. I know that it has survived some low class hurricanes, but should a Cat 3 or above happen with some decent surge....that marina is toast.

It survived Irene relatively intact, but frankly most boats evacuated. Irene put 9.5 feet of surge into the town which is the highest ever recorded. I put my boat in the River Dunes marina off of Broad creek during that storm. The guy on the other side of the dock from us stayed on his boat during the storm and saw 110 knots sustained with gusts to 115. A friend on Green creek, behind the bridge had nearly 4 feet of water in his house and he was on pilings to get his house above the 7 ft mark for flood insurance purposes. He's still putting the house back together and has now had it raised to 12 feet above sea level. All this yet the Marina remains. I would not get my hopes up about the marina getting blown away.

[Delancey]

We're boaters, we need infrastructure. I am not saying ALL marina developments are bad, and as stated I am pro development of previously developed areas.

I myself live in a marina that was re-purposed from a location that had been a commercial waterfront/toxic wasteland for hundreds of years. The environment here has actually improved as the result of its conversion to a recreational marina.

If a few bad apples mean more mooring fields, then I can live with that. If in fact they are not financially tenable for the communities that installed them, they will slowly fade away but the anchorage itself will remain. However, taking that same anchorage and transforming it into a marina is an effectually irreversible act which strikes me as profoundly short sighted.

What's the history of the American waterfront? Overcrowding results in pollution and overharvesting which results in the destruction of the local fish stocks which means that local waterman are forced to abandon their livelyhoods and sell their property to a developer who builds places for more people to come to so they can pollute more and further corrupt what was once a quaint fishing town but is now just another theme park waiting to get wiped off the map by the next furrycame so it can get rebuilt with federal tax dollars and the same people who built the first development can get paid all over again.

This is all well and fine for the select few who profit but is it really good for you the cruiser? Or for society as a whole in the long run?

Think about that the next time you are enjoying your crab dinner in on the Bay somewhere in Maryland. Probably one in two of the crabs you are eating is actually frozen and shipped to you thanks to FOREIGN OIL from a place like Alabama or Mississippi.

Something tells me those crabs would taste better if the were caught fresh from the waters beneath your keel if only those waters were healthy enough to support vibrant marine life instead of being a lifeless wasteland.

[Delancey]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

If I am understanding you correctly, you actually do not have any personal knowledge about how deep the water was in the area of the marina. Is that correct? The information I got was from a former resident of Oriental who told me the water there was less than 2 feet deep and virtually a mud flat after the wind blew strongly form the SW for a few days. Even a shallow draft catamaran like a Gemini would have a hard time in there if that report is true. If anyone has actual personal knowledge as to whether this is true or not it might contribute to the conversation. It might be that the the marina did not take anything away from anyone except flounder gigers, I simply don't know for sure. A lot of people seem to be making strong accusations against the marina development. I would just like to know if they are based on fact or speculation. The oldest chart i have of the area is 2005 which is after the marina, perhaps a member with a pre-mairina chart could report on what depth is shown in that area.

Again, I refer to John Buck's unambiguous statement- "our tiny harbor is a result of the development"

[Sand Castle]

Originally Posted by Julie Mor

You're right.

1. You can't blame Town Dock just because they initiated the complaint and then continued to post about it on their blog.

2.
a) We all know racism is dead, as evidenced by the recent 5-4 SCOTUS decision that invalidates the heart of the Voting Rights Act. I'm glad we cured THAT problem!

b) And since mob rule is trying to take control of a situation by those outside the lawful realm, certainly posting to a blog and stirring up public sentiment against a few boaters can't be considered mob rule. After all, it's only a few boaters who have little voice and even less financial means with which to defend and support themselves.

c) As for the Apocalypse, you're on your own there.

1. Towndock is reporting the events. PEOPLE are writing letters to the editor. It's called the First Amendment. Still protected by law.

2. Your racism reference is not related to the specific events of this discussion, and thus continues to remain invalid.

3. What mob? Hello? People sharing opinion on a public forum separated by many miles hardly constitutes a mob.

You get a "Drama Queen" award from me. And your first beer. Because the crazy talk only gets better with alcohol! 😮

[Captain Bill]

Originally Posted by Delancy

Again, I refer to John Buck's unambiguous statement- "our tiny harbor is a result of the development"

I grant you that's what he said, but even you pointed out that he was a self described land owner and you did not know if he was a boater or not. Since I don't know this gentleman, I don't know if he had knowledge from a boater's perspective about the usability of the area now occupied by the marina or not. The remark made in my presence was from someone I know casually and used to live in the area. I do not know this person well and don't know if the statement was BS or not. I'm simply trying to see if a fellow cruiser might have actual knowledge of the water depths in the area of the marina prior to when the marina was built. I'm not seeking an arguement, I'm seeking knowledge. There seems to be a lot of arguement on this thread and not much knowledge.

[Sand Castle]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

I'm simply trying to see if a fellow cruiser might have actual knowledge of the water depths in the area of the marina prior to when the marina was built.

Been going there since the 90s. It's always been about 5-6 feet.

[Sand Castle]

Originally Posted by rourkeh

It all starts with not allowing harmless boaters to anchor for free in their own waters, next thing you know the government is reading your email, searching your home without cause, or running you out of some harbor because they don't like the look of your boat. Slippery slope.

Lighten up, Frances.

We're not talking about the Nazification of the USA, as much as that appeals to your Euro-condescension.

We're talking about 3 inconsiderate boaters hogging a small anchorage.