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Old 15-09-2013, 13:52   #106
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Seems there's a few on CF as well....
But you know so far a vast majority of the people here seem to be pretty good honest folk. but that guy..... Wow just simply wow.
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Old 15-09-2013, 14:06   #107
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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Originally Posted by Wrong View Post
It's relative. I could park my Nor'Sea27 in at least 4 spots among the boats in the photo. Sailors who choose deep draught, larger boats should expect to reduce their anchoring possibilities as a consequence of the choice they make in choosing a boat. They should not as a consequence try to limit or control other boaters in order to accommodate the larger boat. How many boats have both bow and stern anchors deployed? This should be prohibited as long as it is an open anchorage without mooring balls.
Are you actually familiar with this harbor and what it's like under windy conditions? Are you familiar with the holding characteristics of the bottom? According to letters written to the town dock web site and some posting on SSECN two of the boats have bow and stern anchors. One actually said he did it because he draws too much water and would run aground or into the channel in unfavorable winds if he did not. This was not the OP by the way. On a day like the one in the photo I could have dropped a hook in there, but the picture is not representative of typical conditions in this harbor. Please remember that the area in question is only a small piece of the area shown in this photo. It is essentially the area from the tip of the seawall where the cats are tied up to approximately the left edge of the gap in the sea wall and then back into the harbor to the light blue shrimp boat. The area this side of the seawall is not part of the debate. It looks to me like there are six or seven boats in the area in question. You might be able to get one or two more in there under the conditions in the photo because you need almost no scope. Put a couple of boat in there that don't swing with the rest and a whole lot of that space becomes unusable. Remember that there is a channel used by the shrimp boats and entrances to the slips in the marina that can't be blocked.

I don't think that anyone has mentioned accomodating larger or deeper draft vessels. I have not seen this mentioned in any post here or in other sites. If this was just the OP swinging on a normal rode I don't think there would be an issue here. The OP brought up the Towndock web site (www.towndock.net) so go out there and read the letters and articles. Accomodating more transient visitors to town is part of the problem but certainly not the major issue if you read web site. My boat is a bit longer than yours, but I don't see why it gives someone with a smaller boat(s) the right to permanently occupy a public space to the exclusion of all others.
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Old 15-09-2013, 14:25   #108
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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Originally Posted by Morgan3820 View Post
First off, your veteran status has nothing to do with this discussion of your behavior. But since you brought it up, I find invoking your past to engender sympathy for your bad behavior to be disingenuous. I work with active duty Marines and most are fine people but I think that they would not approve. Service men and women today are extremely well compensated, which is fine. But there are plenty of other Americans that spend their entire careers serving the nation in difficult poorly paid capacities. EMTs see way more broken bodies than most military but make less than a burger flipper and receive little public adulation. Then there are nurses, firefighters, ...


Glad someone you brought this up. I was beginning to wonder what being a Vet had to do with this issue. Nothing the way I see it.
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Old 15-09-2013, 14:57   #109
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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Are you actually familiar with this harbor and what it's like under windy conditions? Are you familiar with the holding characteristics of the bottom? According to letters written to the town dock web site and some posting on SSECN two of the boats have bow and stern anchors. One actually said he did it because he draws too much water and would run aground or into the channel in unfavorable winds if he did not. This was not the OP by the way. On a day like the one in the photo I could have dropped a hook in there, but the picture is not representative of typical conditions in this harbor. Please remember that the area in question is only a small piece of the area shown in this photo. It is essentially the area from the tip of the seawall where the cats are tied up to approximately the left edge of the gap in the sea wall and then back into the harbor to the light blue shrimp boat. The area this side of the seawall is not part of the debate. It looks to me like there are six or seven boats in the area in question. You might be able to get one or two more in there under the conditions in the photo because you need almost no scope. Put a couple of boat in there that don't swing with the rest and a whole lot of that space becomes unusable. Remember that there is a channel used by the shrimp boats and entrances to the slips in the marina that can't be blocked.

I don't think that anyone has mentioned accomodating larger or deeper draft vessels. I have not seen this mentioned in any post here or in other sites. If this was just the OP swinging on a normal rode I don't think there would be an issue here. The OP brought up the Towndock web site (www.towndock.net) so go out there and read the letters and articles. Accomodating more transient visitors to town is part of the problem but certainly not the major issue if you read web site. My boat is a bit longer than yours, but I don't see why it gives someone with a smaller boat(s) the right to permanently occupy a public space to the exclusion of all others.
Bill the only one that uses an aft anchor is the red one and it's so close to the OYC that anchoring there normally is not an option. Now that this has been brought to the town government's attention there is now talk of dredging it out. My beef is not with the town it's self so much (other then the general lack of simple kindness), it's really with the people who spent allot of time running a 4 month long public smear campaign, and never once tried asking me to move. I refuse to be pushed around by bullies. Now after 4 months some of the government officials kindly asked me if I would move, so now this week I am moving. If they had asked me 4 months ago I would of moved 4 months ago. All the letters on the towncrock talking about kindness look like reasonable points, until you see and think about the other side.

What I am worried about is if left unchecked the government will do what governments do best and remove our rights. They are open to input and I should say that as cruisers (the kind of people the town wants to attract) we make our voice heard about what we both like and don't like, want and don't want. I am not here just to say "I am mad blabidy bla bla" I am hoping to get support to make the town a better place for cruisers.
They have a servey I just found the link to it I have submitted one myself. For me I don't think anchor limitations are a good way to go. Live abords and cruisers tend to be very libertarian minded people.
But for or against any ideas I support the main thing is don't let a bunch of bitter towncrock a--clowns decide what criusers, and liveabords want.

http://www.townoforiental.com/vertic...r_Festival.pdf
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Old 15-09-2013, 14:59   #110
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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Are you actually familiar with this harbor and what it's like under windy conditions? Are you familiar with the holding characteristics of the bottom? According to letters written to the town dock web site and some posting on SSECN two of the boats have bow and stern anchors. One actually said he did it because he draws too much water and would run aground or into the channel in unfavorable winds if he did not. This was not the OP by the way. On a day like the one in the photo I could have dropped a hook in there, but the picture is not representative of typical conditions in this harbor. Please remember that the area in question is only a small piece of the area shown in this photo. It is essentially the area from the tip of the seawall where the cats are tied up to approximately the left edge of the gap in the sea wall and then back into the harbor to the light blue shrimp boat. The area this side of the seawall is not part of the debate. It looks to me like there are six or seven boats in the area in question. You might be able to get one or two more in there under the conditions in the photo because you need almost no scope. Put a couple of boat in there that don't swing with the rest and a whole lot of that space becomes unusable. Remember that there is a channel used by the shrimp boats and entrances to the slips in the marina that can't be blocked.

I don't think that anyone has mentioned accomodating larger or deeper draft vessels. I have not seen this mentioned in any post here or in other sites. If this was just the OP swinging on a normal rode I don't think there would be an issue here. The OP brought up the Towndock web site (www.towndock.net) so go out there and read the letters and articles. Accomodating more transient visitors to town is part of the problem but certainly not the major issue if you read web site. My boat is a bit longer than yours, but I don't see why it gives someone with a smaller boat(s) the right to permanently occupy a public space to the exclusion of all others.
I believe it's called first come first serve. It also appears this is primarily a shallow draught anchorage, regardless of a boats displacement. A sizeable boat with a drop keel wins provided there is sufficient room to swing on adequate scope. There are conventions for anchoring in different spots. If 8 out of 10 boats are on a single anchor swinging in predictable fashion without danger of collision, the remaining two boats must adapt or find a different anchorage. I witnessed a boat deploy bow and stern anchors in Chaguaramas, Trinidad once. The response by nearby boats humiliated the sailor such that he promptly complied by bringing in the second anchor. This does not suggest there is no scenario where a boat anchored bow and stern cannot do so safely with nearby boats swinging freely on one anchor. A boat at the edge of an anchorage with boats only to one side may be o.k.. In the midst of other boats though, no. I believe many 'problems' in anchorages can be resolved by boaters themselves.

Although I do not endorse sailors freeing apparently abandoned vessels from their mooring (anchor) in order to make a prime spot available, I'm aware that it has occurred. The boat in question drifted gently onto a mud flat, to be later removed by the appropriate authorities.

This anchorage shares some of the same features with the waters adjacent to Sausalito, California.

If I planned on anchoring at Oriental I'd do the same thing I do when anchored in Sausalito - watch weather forecasts making sure I have time in advance of adverse conditions for moving to a different sheltered anchorage.
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Old 15-09-2013, 15:05   #111
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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Glad someone you brought this up. I was beginning to wonder what being a Vet had to do with this issue. Nothing the way I see it.

My only question is what "Bad Behavior"
Really name one Law I have broken, the answer is none, When reasonably asked to move, I agreed to move. When the pine chips in front of the post office caught on fire I put it out (you can ask the people at the drug store about that, I ran in there to get water to put it out). So kindly tell me what this bad behavior was unless your talking about what the towncrock did, then I see it.
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Old 15-09-2013, 15:23   #112
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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Originally Posted by GothVanhellsing View Post
My only question is what "Bad Behavior"
Really name one Law I have broken, the answer is none, When reasonably asked to move, I agreed to move. When the pine chips in front of the post office caught on fire I put it out (you can ask the people at the drug store about that, I ran in there to get water to put it out). So kindly tell me what this bad behavior was unless your talking about what the towncrock did, then I see it.
Sorry, I know nothing about your behavior I was just echoing the question of what does being a Vet have to do with any of this. What does it?
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Old 15-09-2013, 15:32   #113
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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Originally Posted by GothVanhellsing View Post
My only question is what "Bad Behavior"
Really name one Law I have broken, the answer is none, When reasonably asked to move, I agreed to move. When the pine chips in front of the post office caught on fire I put it out (you can ask the people at the drug store about that, I ran in there to get water to put it out). So kindly tell me what this bad behavior was unless your talking about what the towncrock did, then I see it.
Again I looked at Towndock and saw nothing about you, only the French boat and crew, and you yourself called some of their behavior questionable to be polite. Can you tell us what was specifically said about you as I cannot find it on the web site. Granted they may have taken down the offending article so please share with us how they smeared you.

I just looked at the anchorage cam on towndock and it looks like your boat and the white boat are further north in the anchorage than I remember them being in June this appears to have opened up a bit more space, but then again things might look different through the camera.

I hope they don't actually write anchoring restrictions into the law. I would hope that cruisers and liveaboards would be considerate enough of their fellow boaters to not permanently occupy a small anchorage, no matter what the townsfolk might say.


Wrong, my boat draws less than 4 feet so draft is not the issue I faced. One problem with jetties is that light stuff settles out behind them and unless there's a strong current the harbor silts in and holding sucks. Such is the case with Oriental. I suppose if you are there long enough an anchor might sink through the silt and eventually hit solid bottom.
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Old 15-09-2013, 15:47   #114
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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Why should he have to ask. The arrogance here never ceases to amaze me. He' not doing and hasn't done anything illegal. The town restricted access in favor of profit. In the process all of our collective rights were diminished. What part don't you guys get? Why should you have to ask my permission to visit for a day? A week? A month?
You shouldn't have to ask period. The water is a natural resource belonging to everybody. Don't misconstrue my meaning here. I think there should be a mechanism for removing abandoned derelict boats. But the minute you interfere with a lawful users access you have crossed a line. The town by selling the anchorage is to blame. You should be able to sell what doesn't belong to you. Oh and for Morgan. I'd be proud to have a neighbor like Goth here in Florida. Shame on you for not being proud to. Perhaps you think you are more worthy somehow?
Well sure. Just park your boat in an area that somebody else doesn't pay to maintain. Not a problem at all.
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Old 15-09-2013, 15:57   #115
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

From Towndock

Almost three weeks ago, news emerged that Walmart was in the planning stages of building a Walmart Express store – mainly grocery – just outside Oriental. Some welcome the giant retailer because of its reputation for low prices. Others see Walmart as a threat to some local, independent businesses such as the Town-n-County, Denton’s Pharmacy, the hardware store. Those opposed to Walmart opening a store near Oriental have been busy the past two weeks, organizing. Tonight, they’re showing the documentary, ‘Walmart: The High Cost of Low Prices’ at the Old Theater at 7:30p. They’d inviting everyone. It’s free. Meanwhile, a petition is circulating, letters are being written, t-shirts are being sold and small signs are about to go up in yards. More details at the website, stopwalmart.org.


Maybe they'll have something else to get "wired" about now.
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Old 15-09-2013, 15:59   #116
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

I'm sorry I don't follow. Are you saying you pay to maintain the anchorage? Or do you pay for the docks , showers , and toilet facilities?
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Old 15-09-2013, 16:03   #117
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

It's not unusual for public lands to have rules forbidding camping or limiting the length and/or frequency of camping. Why should it be different for public waters?
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Old 15-09-2013, 16:04   #118
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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I just looked at the anchorage cam on towndock and it looks like your boat and the white boat are further north in the anchorage than I remember them being in June this appears to have opened up a bit more space, but then again things might look different through the camera.

I hope they don't actually write anchoring restrictions into the law. I would hope that cruisers and liveaboards would be considerate enough of their fellow boaters to not permanently occupy a small anchorage, no matter what the townsfolk might say.


Wrong, my boat draws less than 4 feet so draft is not the issue I faced. One problem with jetties is that light stuff settles out behind them and unless there's a strong current the harbor silts in and holding sucks. Such is the case with Oriental. I suppose if you are there long enough an anchor might sink through the silt and eventually hit solid bottom.
Regardless of the particular characteristics of an anchorage, a sailor must be prepared to move to an alternate, better protected anchorage if adverse weather is forecast. My understanding is your complaint pertains first to the exposed nature of the outer anchorage; and second to the lack of space in the inside, better protected area. I've never been anywhere within 1,000 miles of Orient. Consequently, I have no idea of how many other sheltered anchorages may be within a reasonable distance of Orient. But, central to the life of live aboard, anchor out cruisers like myself, is understanding the local weather and knowing where alternate anchorages are located. We adapt our lives to the weather pattern, taking care of business in one area when appropriate, and hunkering down in a different location when necessary. My question for you, is could you have anchored in an alternate location until conditions were favourable for returning to Orient, anchored in the outer harbour, taken care of business and then either moved on or stayed as long as weather was favourable?
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Old 15-09-2013, 16:11   #119
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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It's not unusual for public lands to have rules forbidding camping or limiting the length and/or frequency of camping. Why should it be different for public waters?
You are apparently comfortably tied to a dock in a marina and haven't the foggiest notion of what's at stake, what this conversation is all about.
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Old 15-09-2013, 16:30   #120
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

Mark what I see is another grab for rights to an area we previously had. We are not Talking about camping. We are talking about live aboards and cruisers All of us and that includes you lose. Every time this happens it chips away at everybody's right to live like they want.
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