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Old 22-09-2013, 18:00   #751
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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Originally Posted by GothVanhellsing View Post
Wow, just wow. Normally I don't feed the trolls. But will let you know I don't think courtesy and social niceties are your strong point.
I am presenting a parody to illustrate a point about social courtesy arguments.

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Old 22-09-2013, 18:02   #752
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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what I was trying to get across is the nonsense of the "courtesy" argument. Its like having a discussion about the quality of hamburgers with a starving refugee.

dave
No, it's not. Goth strikes me as a reasonably courteous person who had a particular view of things (staying in the harbor). He just wanted to be notified that his assumptions were incorrect rather than read the newspaper and feel vilified.
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Old 22-09-2013, 18:06   #753
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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Originally Posted by CatInHand View Post
No, I really don't know what you mean. The homeless guys in Seattle that lived along my walking route to work built their houses off the beaten path, under viaducts, in abandoned building porches etc. They didn't force themsleves onto the graces of others by demanding their rights to sleep outside a restaurant because they got better handouts there.

And before you get all righteous and huffy about 'out of sight, out of mind', the ferry folk knew all their resident homeless people and took good care of them. Most did not want permanent shelter. When the ill-mannered ones showed up and narrowed the walkway, they were ignored and quickly moved on (as in, they were moved on by the police). The others made themselves a part of our commute society, and we cared about them.

Our society is made up of many types of people and they are all necessary, and they all need to obey the same rules. You don't get squatters rights in public spaces because you have less money. You don't get to yell "discrimination" because you are treating space that's meant for everyone as your own domain. And in the Oriental situation, it is prime public space. Meant to be shared.

If you want to anchor permanently somewhere, don't pick the best spot. Choose an out of the way harbor, and I'm pretty sure that no one will mind at all.
Once again I was happy on the creeks and will be back there soon it's my torn shoulder that got me in the harbor, I would not mind being there a bit longer because it's far from being healed. But the snowbird season is coming and I will be out before they roll through. It's not like it's realy busy between the spring and fall snow bird seasons
http://towndock.net/anchoragecam

As far as labeling it discrimination, what else would you call it when half the posts say they need to get them out because we don't like the way the boats look?
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Old 22-09-2013, 18:06   #754
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

I am not a supporter of what Mr. Gothbalheilsing did, or the others, ( which is why I rejected his "friend " request). WHat I have been discussing is why in my view you get people who do not see the "courtesy or decency" argument. i argued from the very =begiining the only way you can deal with these situations is to have rules and apply them and in their absence , there is little you can do.

I make no evaluation of Goths level of courtesy or otherwise , since I have no idea who he is. If he takes exception to "Mr Bum" etc , I apologise , I used that term because it was used in a previous poster, who argued that this was all about decency. I argue that decency is in the eye of the beholder and very much conditioned by the situation the person finds themselves in.

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Old 22-09-2013, 18:12   #755
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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Originally Posted by sailorchic34 View Post
You know Mark I actuall agree with what you say. The land folks really can't tell a good liveaboard from a bad one. We are all the same to the land folk and we are the problem. That's true in marinas and with the anchor outs.

The only real difference from being anchored long term in KW back when you did it or now either and Oriental is Oriental is dinky small. Really a few of those boats from the photo's don't look that bad. If the anchorage was sized for 15 -20 boats as it was before the marina went in, this would not even be a discussion.

I really don't think the long term anchor outs are going to really disappear any time soon. As the population increases so to does the proportion of folks who anchor out. Yes its pretty bad in Florida. Gee there are tons O anchor outs in the SF Bay and I is one of them. Though I consider myself a good ft cruiser / anchor out /annoying boating chic, as I keep my boat ship shape. Though its been 20 years since the hull shined.

Just so I'm clear, its OK if you anchor out, but not for others, that is the bad anchor outs, just wondering. Sorry I don't mean to be evil, I just is....


You need to read my various posts again... No one is railing against anchored out liveaboards! It is THESE anchored out liveaboards.

The crowded anchorage problem in Oriental has been 99% non existent, before these three boats moved in there for good. The OP has repeatedly misrepresented the "facts". In fact, I never have failed to find a spot there in previous years, before these three boats moved in. It was sometimes crowded, but if we were all laying to one hook, it was always doable.

The current boats in question are occupying a space NORMALLY large enough for 6 or 7 boats, due to the multi anchor moorings they have set. The 99% of boats that are passing through and lay to one hook, can no longer anchor in there without fouling the "permanents" multiple lines, running across the bottom. The new hypothetical transients can't even anchor anywhere near the "anarchist three", because they may then swing into the "moored" boats, which, due to having several hooks out, will swing in a far smaller circle. (We have 180 degree wind shifts here all the time)!

Like I said, the OP is making it up as he goes along... There have been a FEW boats who did the same sort of thing as this over the 7 years we've been here, so that might make 5 or even 8 out of hundreds, if not thousands of boats... FAR less than 1% of them.

To say it is inevitable makes no sense. Does that mean give in to it? Most folks here have enough common sense not to "squat" in a small transient courtesy anchorage.

This is not about liveaboards or their rights, like I repeatedly pointed out. I SUPPORT ANCHORING OUT RIGHTS 100%! It is about consideration and common sense. This is the wrong place for what they're doing. NO ONE has the absolute right to anchor where ever they please. (Try it in ANY channel, or next to the aircraft carriers in Norfolk)!

Really, it is not about legalities, it is about you as the person anchoring getting YOUR needs met in a way that doesn't infringe on others' rights in the process.

Yes... It is OK for "me" to do it responsibly, just like anyone else... responsibly. Forget the who, and focus on the how...

For one thing, (on the US east coast), being a long term liveaboard anywhere above Titusville Florida, (which I previously described in detail), is BRUTAL in the winter. This is even more true up here! It may get down into the teens.

IF one wants to go for it here anyway, then they need to pick an "appropriate" spot.

RESPONSIBLE ANCHORED OUT LIVEABOARD:

First... They need a LARGE roomy anchorage with a marina close by, that offers anchored out services, like a pumpout dock or possibly even a pump out boat, like in Titusville.

This hypothetical marina ALSO offers fuels & propane, parking spaces for your car or bike, showers, mail drop, dinghy dock, and maybe even has a small attached grocery store.

Anchored in THIS sort of spot, you are getting YOUR needs met, while being legal, responsible, and considerate in every respect. You are not landing your dink on public or private land, nor locking up your bike there. You are renting this sort of space... it's yours! You are also not contributing to the water pollution problem, (as trivial as it may be in the overall picture)... You are also NOT keeping anyone else from using the anchorage!

Now, if you have a sound boat with WELL MAINTAINED ground tackle, set so well that it is up to AT LEAST 80 mph winds... Then, that is being a responsible liveaboard. I estimate that I have had that much wind or more about 100 times over 40 years, and anchored a sistership in a catagory 4.

A lot of marinas offer these services to "responsible" liveaboards, with reasonable fees well under $100/month, perhaps closer to half that!

The anchorage in Oriental was never envisioned other than as an extension of the 2 boat free dock. The anchorage and the free dinghy dock there is a courtesy to "transients", because the town is situated right at a double cross roads. It is the only logical "provisioning" ICW stop over spot within a day, AND is also the logical stop over spot for boats heading out into Pamlico Sound from New Bern, several hours up the Neuse River.

The marina near this anchorage does NOT offer the liveaboard services I previously mentioned, because it is not that type of marina, it's private. This is therefore, exactly what I said, the worst possible anchorage for a person to long term stay in, much less THREE of them, with their ground tackle all over the place on the bottom.

Along with their regularly shitting in the slow flowing (already polluted) Neuse River, what these folks are doing is the HEIGHT of irresponsible, inconsiderate behavior. Their poor judgement and excesses cut down on the anchoring rights that I BELIEVE IN and we all want to continue to have.

As the world becomes even more overpopulated, we will loose more and more of these freedoms over time. Why speed things up? The best DEfense against these inevitable things, is to keep a low profile, and "be of no OFfense".

With the exception of once when anchored in Trinidad, (which is another story)... In almost 3,000 nights on the hook, (in over 20 countries), no one EVER complained about the anchoring out that "I" did. It isn't the who, like I said, it's the how & where.

Btw... If you want to be perceived by the land dwellers as a responsible person who just prefers to live anchored out, vs being a "dirt bag", appearances matter! It doesn't take much to have your boat AT LEAST look good when viewed from a quarter mile away through binoculars. That is NOT a high degree of spiff!

Mark
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Old 22-09-2013, 18:16   #756
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Johnson View Post


RESPONSIBLE ANCHORED OUT LIVEABOARD:

First... They need a LARGE roomy anchorage with a marina close by, that offers anchored out services, like a pumpout dock or possibly even a pump out boat, like in Titusville.

This hypothetical marina ALSO offers fuels & propane, parking spaces for your car or bike, showers, mail drop, dinghy dock, and maybe even has a small attached grocery store.

Anchored in THIS sort of spot, you are getting YOUR needs met, while being legal, responsible, and considerate in every respect. You are not landing your dink on public or private land, nor locking up your bike there. You are renting this sort of space... it's yours! You are also not contributing to the water pollution problem, (as trivial as it may be in the overall picture)...

Now, if you have a sound boat with WELL MAINTAINED ground tackle, set so well that it is up to AT LEAST 80 mph winds... Then, that is being a responsible liveaboard. I estimate that have had that much wind about 100 times.

A lot of marinas offer these services to "responsible" liveaboards, with reasonable fees well under $100/month, perhaps closer to half that!


Mark

and if you don't have $100 month, cause your down to nicking Nutella ( which I find hard to believe are the costs ) what then , I mean what is your solution. redo your " RESPONSIBLE LIVEABOARD " post with that in mind.

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Old 22-09-2013, 18:19   #757
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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Originally Posted by GothVanhellsing View Post
Once again I was happy on the creeks and will be back there soon it's my torn shoulder that got me in the harbor, I would not mind being there a bit longer because it's far from being healed. But the snowbird season is coming and I will be out before they roll through. It's not like it's realy busy between the spring and fall snow bird seasons
AnchorageCam | TownDock.net | Oriental NC News, Weather, Photos

As far as labeling it discrimination, what else would you call it when half the posts say they need to get them out because we don't like the way the boats look?
I think the town is unhappy with the french boat and you're getting tarred with the same brush. I suspect, as someone said previously, that many of the folk writing the letters base their definition of a "good" boat on how recent the paint job is. It's just easier to call names than come up with a decent argument.
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Old 22-09-2013, 18:23   #758
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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Originally Posted by sailorchic34 View Post
So I'm wondering what the difference between a PT cruiser, FT cruiser and an anchor out is. Many FT cruisers have a home base where they stay for months or ever years at a time.

I see boats from all around the world anchored in the SF bay and the Cali Delta. Some are here years. Others for 6 months. Many for at least a few weeks.

It seems that most of the folks complaining are PT snowbirds who use the anchorage for an overnight or two as they pass on to their winter destination.

Even if you cleared out everyone from the anchorage, in a week or two, you'll have another few boats there for a month, 6 months or even a year. That's how it is everywhere.

The real problem with Oriental is the current anchoring space is too small for the number of boats that would use it any way. I mean three boats fill the anchorage, thats dinky. At best you might get 6 boats in there. To me it looks a bit tight with 6 boats even. Me, I see boats anchored, I go somewhere else, or horrors, stay at the marina for a night. It's just not a big deal.
how much time do you have sailing/cruising/anchoring out back east?

just curious.....
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Old 22-09-2013, 18:27   #759
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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Originally Posted by Mark Johnson View Post
You need to read my various posts again... No one is railing against anchored out liveaboards! It is THESE anchored out liveaboards.

The crowded anchorage problem in Oriental has been 99% non existent, before these three boats moved in there for good. The OP has repeatedly misrepresented the "facts". In fact, I never have failed to find a spot there in previous years, before these three boats moved in. It was sometimes crowded, but if we were all laying to one hook, it was always doable.

The current boats in question are occupying a space NORMALLY large enough for 6 or 7 boats, due to the multi anchor moorings they have set. The 99% of boats that are passing through and lay to one hook, can no longer anchor in there without fouling the "permanents" multiple lines, running across the bottom. The new hypothetical transients can't even anchor anywhere near the "anarchist three", because they may then swing into the "moored" boats, which, due to having several hooks out, will swing in a far smaller circle. (We have 180 degree wind shifts here all the time)!

Like I said, the OP is making it up as he goes along... There have been a FEW boats who did the same sort of thing as this over the 7 years we've been here, so that might make 5 or even 8 out of hundreds, if not thousands of boats... FAR less than 1% of them.

To say it is inevitable makes no sense. Does that mean give in to it? Most folks here have enough common sense not to "squat" in a small transient courtesy anchorage.

This is not about liveaboards or their rights, like I repeatedly pointed out. I SUPPORT ANCHORING OUT RIGHTS 100%! It is about consideration and common sense. This is the wrong place for what they're doing. NO ONE has the absolute right to anchor where ever they please. (Try it in ANY channel, or next to the aircraft carriers in Norfolk)!

Really, it is not about legalities, it is about you as the person anchoring getting YOUR needs met in a way that doesn't infringe on others' rights in the process.

Yes... It is OK for "me" to do it responsibly, just like anyone else... responsibly. Forget the who, and focus on the how...

For one thing, (on the US east coast), being a long term liveaboard anywhere above Titusville Florida, (which I previously described in detail), is BRUTAL in the winter. This is even more true up here! It may get down into the teens.

IF one wants to go for it here anyway, then they need to pick an "appropriate" spot.

RESPONSIBLE ANCHORED OUT LIVEABOARD:

First... They need a LARGE roomy anchorage with a marina close by, that offers anchored out services, like a pumpout dock or possibly even a pump out boat, like in Titusville.

This hypothetical marina ALSO offers fuels & propane, parking spaces for your car or bike, showers, mail drop, dinghy dock, and maybe even has a small attached grocery store.

Anchored in THIS sort of spot, you are getting YOUR needs met, while being legal, responsible, and considerate in every respect. You are not landing your dink on public or private land, nor locking up your bike there. You are renting this sort of space... it's yours! You are also not contributing to the water pollution problem, (as trivial as it may be in the overall picture)... You are also NOT keeping anyone else from using the anchorage!

Now, if you have a sound boat with WELL MAINTAINED ground tackle, set so well that it is up to AT LEAST 80 mph winds... Then, that is being a responsible liveaboard. I estimate that have had that much wind about 100 times.

A lot of marinas offer these services to "responsible" liveaboards, with reasonable fees well under $100/month, perhaps closer to half that!

The anchorage in Oriental was never envisioned other than as an extension of the 2 boat free dock. The anchorage and the free dinghy dock there is a courtesy to "transients", because the town is situated at right at a double cross roads. It is the only logical "provisioning" ICW stop over spot within a day, AND is also the logical stop over spot for boats heading out into Pamlico Sound from New Bern, several hours up the Neuse River.

The marina near this anchorage does NOT offer the liveaboard services I previously mentioned, because it is not that type of marina, it's private. This is therefore, exactly what I said, the worst possible anchorage for a person to long term stay in, much less THREE of them, with their ground tackle all over the place on the bottom.

Along with their regularly shitting in the slow flowing (already polluted) Neuse River, what these folks are doing is the HEIGHT of irresponsible, inconsiderate behavior. Their poor judgement and excesses cut down on the anchoring rights that I BELIEVE IN and we all want to continue to have.

As the world becomes even more overpopulated, we will loose more and more of these freedoms over time. Why speed things up? The best DEfense against these inevitable things, is to keep a low profile, and "be of no OFfense".

With the exception of once when anchored in Trinidad, (which is another story)... In almost 3,000 nights on the hook, (in over 20 countries), no one EVER complained about the anchoring out that "I" did. It isn't the who, like I said, it's the how & where.

Btw... If you want to be perceived by the land dwellers as a responsible person who just prefers to live anchored out, vs being a "dirt bag", appearances matter! It doesn't take much to have your boat AT LEAST look good when viewed from a quarter mile away through binoculars. That is NOT a high degree of spiff!

Mark

Once again I quote from the letter that started all of this

Limit Stays In Anchorage, A Way To Welcome More Boats | TownDock.net, Oriental NC

"In my 10 years of cruising, without fail, each time I have visited Oriental, there is at least a couple of long-term boats anchored in the tiny harbor, taking up precious space."
For over 9 years no one cared about who was in the harbor. The french boat pulls in pisses some people off and whamo it all becomes an issue. What do we call it when we care about what some people do but not others doing the same thing?
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Old 22-09-2013, 18:28   #760
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
and if you don't have $100 month, cause your down to nicking Nutella ( which I find hard to believe are the costs ) what then , I mean what is your solution.

dave
You don't have to nick things. There are always answers if you look hard enough.

1) Move your boat
2) Work out a volunteer-for-living-expenses agreement with the town
3) In WA state you can be be a park host and dock for free while being a host at a marine park. May be possible other places.
4) Detail the expenses of exactly what you need and get someone to handle the finance raising for you.
5) Get public sympathy by writing to the paper and explaining your situation. (Works better if you do it before you're caught shoplifting).
6) Talk to the (nearly empty) marina about doing some work there in exchange for tying up your boat.

Stuffing a can of nutella in your drawers isn't really the best option here.
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Old 22-09-2013, 18:30   #761
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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Ya,
Sand Castle, I'm just a bit curious. As of this post you have 54 posts of your own. And all of your posts are within this thread. So I was just wondering what woke you up or stirred your interest or whatever it is that compels someone to join a forum, then not participate for years, then suddenly become active on just one thread?

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Old 22-09-2013, 18:36   #762
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pirate Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
how much time do you have sailing/cruising/anchoring out back east?

just curious.....

Yeah. SC, you're on the wrong end of this girl.

And as I gather, the OP has been up Green's Creek for 3 years before he got injured.

3 years ain't cruising. Why post here?

I don't know which is the worse thread, the ferry boat deal or this.

It's been raining all day. Otherwise ...
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Old 22-09-2013, 18:39   #763
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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I don't know which is the worse thread, the ferry boat deal or this.

It's been raining all day. Otherwise ...
I got one turkey eating the tomatoes and the other two racing each other back and forth across the roof.

Debating with invisible people is much more valuable than dealing with these other things.
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Old 22-09-2013, 18:40   #764
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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You don't have to nick things. There are always answers if you look hard enough.

1) Move your boat
2) Work out a volunteer-for-living-expenses agreement with the town
3) In WA state you can be be a park host and dock for free while being a host at a marine park. May be possible other places.
4) Detail the expenses of exactly what you need and get someone to handle the finance raising for you.
5) Get public sympathy by writing to the paper and explaining your situation. (Works better if you do it before you're caught shoplifting).
6) Talk to the (nearly empty) marina about doing some work there in exchange for tying up your boat.

Stuffing a can of nutella in your drawers isn't really the best option here.
Trust me it worked out well for them after they were caught shoplifting too. I am not going to beg people for money. Like I said this week when the wind shifts I am going back to the creeks. I can live with the pain from rowing a farther distance. But just because I move out of choice doesn't mean in any way this fight is over. Far from it. I believe what I am fighting for is right, and will stand up for it, be it from a creek or the harbor.
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Old 22-09-2013, 18:40   #765
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I thought the original letter was from Russell Smith who complained he passed Oriental by due to a harbour full of long term boats

Dave
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