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Old 22-09-2013, 15:09   #721
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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Originally Posted by Tom.B View Post
That is still just hearsay and you continue to stand by your own bullshit assertions. Perhaps their business is down because of increased competition or they just started sucking at it. There are more places to shop and eat that have popped up in only the past four years since I have started visiting exclusively by boat. You keep trying to blame the town or the town's unofficial website for your losing argument. It's quite sad.

You know, Beaufort is nice this time of year. You should go check that place out for a while. You know, since you're a cruiser and all. I will guarantee you won't be bothered there, that is, if you can find a place to anchor. Maybe you could find a job there?
You know one of us lives here, and it's not you. But if what you say is true, well then whats the issue the town is growing,,, Yay we can put all this the harbor is stopping the town from getting visitors talk right here because Tom says the town is growing, granted one of the restaurants here just closed it's doors last week, and every marina had cut some of their staff. Sorry seems you want your cake and to eat it too given the fact your creating a circular argument where your own posts are diametrically apposed. Why is that?
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Old 22-09-2013, 15:23   #722
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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Originally Posted by Doodles View Post
You are either trying to deflect my comments or you fail to see the difference between human rights and privileges under certain laws, and I have a feeling it's the former.
No I am just ignoring where you claim my right to lawfully use public waters is any more or less then anyone else's regardless of the amount of time.
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Old 22-09-2013, 15:25   #723
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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Attachment 67676
For reference
And as you can see like it always is in the seasons between the Snowbirds it's like the DC beltway out there
AnchorageCam | TownDock.net | Oriental NC News, Weather, Photos
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Old 22-09-2013, 15:32   #724
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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No I am just ignoring where you claim my right to lawfully use public waters is any more or less then anyone else's regardless of the amount of time.
No, you need to re-read the post. I said you were hogging the space and being rude. I said nothing about your lawful rights. I also asked why do you stay in Oriental where you are so "abused". Can you answer that?
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Old 22-09-2013, 15:33   #725
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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granted one of the restaurants here just closed it's doors last week, and every marina had cut some of their staff.
So, one could make the argument that the blockade in the harbor is now affecting the local businesses.

Alternatively, one could also make the argument that the summer high season is over or that the kids cut from the staffs had to return to school.

Every marina?
1. Pecan Grove
2. Clancy's
3. Oriental Marina
4. Oriental Harbor Marina
5. Whittaker Pointe
6. Whittaker Creek
7. Deatons
8. Sailcraft
9. River Bend

All nine (there are likely a couple more) have cut their staffs? Is it reasonable to assume you are an authority of the town's headcount on such a detailed level?

The blockade you are leading has put at least nine people out of a job and closed a whole restaurant. Dang. You got clout.



(Not sure I would hedge my next paycheck on the accuracy of your prior statement. It does lack, um, data.)
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Old 22-09-2013, 15:39   #726
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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Just you invoking the word discrimination is desperate as the very next post by another rational poster described.

Hey don't move...I really don't care for now....

In fact I'm still trying to figure out whether you have or have not moved. Because if you are posting...you ain't pullin' anchor.

I'll be through sometime before Christmas...we'll see what reality is...not just typing by all parties involved....I'm dying to see this played out as another good example how a few may have ruined it for most of us cruisers...just like Florida.

For those that are still there in Dec from now....well...good luck!!!!
That is just the way i see it. But like I said it was pointed out to me by a friend, and retired lawyer who had a long history helping with the ACLU.

One thing you will learn about this area is all the tides are wind driven. Meaning when it blows from the north the water gets high. Lately most of the wind has been out of the north, when the water goes down, and I have a free day,,, under the 45' bridge I will go.

Really if you're coming here and your boat can fit under the bridge trust me when I say it's a better spot for your boat anyhow. There is the wildlife ramp dock over there you can moore a dinghy too, and the sunsets are the best from greens creek. Then if I am still in this town we could be greens neighbors. That is a bit of local knowledge that's worth it's weight in gold.
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Old 22-09-2013, 15:47   #727
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

So I'm wondering what the difference between a PT cruiser, FT cruiser and an anchor out is. Many FT cruisers have a home base where they stay for months or ever years at a time.

I see boats from all around the world anchored in the SF bay and the Cali Delta. Some are here years. Others for 6 months. Many for at least a few weeks.

It seems that most of the folks complaining are PT snowbirds who use the anchorage for an overnight or two as they pass on to their winter destination.

Even if you cleared out everyone from the anchorage, in a week or two, you'll have another few boats there for a month, 6 months or even a year. That's how it is everywhere.

The real problem with Oriental is the current anchoring space is too small for the number of boats that would use it any way. I mean three boats fill the anchorage, thats dinky. At best you might get 6 boats in there. To me it looks a bit tight with 6 boats even. Me, I see boats anchored, I go somewhere else, or horrors, stay at the marina for a night. It's just not a big deal.
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Old 22-09-2013, 15:54   #728
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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First of all...I said "on deck inspecting" to mean that long term anchoring (not a permanent overkill mooring) your average ground tackle can fail pretty quick if not inspected regularly...not simple dragging.

And where I come form (pretty much the entire ICW area I've lived along and flew USCG helos...read - flights inspecting storm damage...and also now work salvage in the South Jersey area))....anchor outs out wind up on the beach in a much higher percentage than weekenders because when the weather stinks...the weekenders are back at their dock or never left.


I've agreed with pretty much all of your posts! Well said, all of them...
I have put my two cents in there already, and will make one last shot at it.

It irks me to see the "liveaboard" subject soo misrepresented on this thread. THIS ORIENTAL HARBOR ISSUE, IS NOT ABOUT ANCHORING RIGHTS, MONEY, POLITICS, AESTHETICS, ELITISM, or NORTH vs SOUTH. It is about consideration of others and common sense, which these boats appear to have neither!

There is a time and place for most things, and these few "bum boats" that are long term dominating the small anchorage in Oriental, are 100% out of place there. They are free to do it in another "more spacious" anchorage, but HERE, it is so out of place as to be just plane rude, and inconsiderate of the hundreds of OTHER boaters that they prevent from using this small anchorage. Me for one.

A STORY:
As I am turning 60, I have seen this progression of bum boat anchorage "take overs" since I left my SC home @ 15 years old, to live an adventurer's life. I became a boatbuilder to support my habit, and 3 times built my own small cruiser, (Twice while living in a one room mouse infested shack, connected to a barn). This was for 15 years! The "personal boat" building portion of my life has taken me over 20 full time years, and most of the others were spent seriously cruising ALL OVER the place, or living aboard on the hook, while I worked on shore. I lived most of these years on an absolute shoestring!

As an old southern boy ex hippie... I am neither conservative, a Yankee, Republican, rich, insensitive to the poor, nor elitist, and I'm an environmentalist tree hugger, through and through... Now, my best friends are from all over the world, as I find our relationships richer, giving me a broader point of view than I would otherwise have.

Decades ago... I spent years living in huge liveaboard anchorages like Boot Key Harbor Marathon, and behind Christmas Tree Island in Key West. I was dirt poor, but I built and maintained my humble little boats with pride and great care. I knew about my ground tackle's condition, and kept the boat's bottom clean, because I went sailing regularly.

These anchorages, and many similar anchorages I have stayed at, were from 50% to 80% bum boats. The locals referred to the occupants as "dirt bags". They were "street people" on water... While I lived there, some were my friends, but I was NOT like them. I could not understand their lack of caring, lack or responsibility, and living their lives at other's expense. They were irresponsible with their bicycle spot, and dinghy landing on shore, in their depositing of garbage, noise, driving their dinghy too fast while stoned drunk, and lack of ground tackle maintenance. They seldom used anchor lights, and some would even steel your oars.

I had LESS money than most of them, but I paid for minor services on shore in a responsible way. I had more self respect, more pride in my boat, and a moral compass that would not allow me to "live my life at others expense" as they were.

The "dirt bags" on the other hand, had ugly, non maintained bum boats, with permanent moorings made of several small anchors with numerous lines across the bottom all covered with barnacles and twisted around each other, (like currently seen anchored in Oriental)... With every week long cold front, a Key West bum boat or two would end up sunk or on the beach. Often they would damage other boats in the process. Then the owners might leave behind their worthless wreck, for the State to eventually clean up. (Like 20 years later) I saw this play out over & over & over, and for the longest time, the State could do nothing at all about dealing with this problem. The laws were not there, but, eventually... the State fixed that! Prior to this, hundreds or even thousands of DERELICT BOATS WERE EVERYWHERE. I don't want NC to get like South Florida... not with the bum boat/derelict problem, nor the State response to it!

In South Florida, this "irresponsible" liveaboard behavior over 40 years, has now TOTALLY ruined boating and especially "cruising" in the Keys, an area that used to be the mainland USs #1 clear water cruiser's paradise. The draconian legal response aimed at fixing the "irresponsible" liveaboard problem, took the "responsible" liveaboards down with them. The landside powers that be, painted us ALL with the same brush! It's not right or fair, but true... This is what happens, because the lawmakers tend to NOT be cruisers, or know the difference between the responsible liveaboard from the dirt bags.

This sort of bum boat "liveaboard", as I said, was VERY different from my type of liveaboard. The difference was not at all money or boat size, it was about "looking" ship shape, using common sense, exercising responsibility, and caring about the rights of others as much as my own.

WHY CANT I DO AS I PLEASE ON THE WATER?
Remember... living on a boat is more like flying a plane than living on land. To fly a plane, you must have a licence and a PROVEN to be well maintained aircraft, because when it falls out of the sky, it can kill people! The same is true (but to a lesser degree) of anchored out boats. When they drag, they damage other's property. When they sink, they become a hazard to navigation. If the owners can't afford the expense of REALLY good ground tackle, AND maintain it, then they should loose their perceived "right" to live anchored out. Same is true if they can't afford to repair ANY damage that their boat might cause. On shore, it is unlikely that their small house, or washing machine box for that matter, will drag during a thunderstorm into its neighbor, causing MAJOR damage! On shore is where the destitute and dirt poor belong... Hopefully getting help and being treated kindly.

On the other hand... The relatively poor but "highly responsible" liveaboard, like I have been, might have a very humble/small boat, maintain it and their ground tackle with pride, keep a little "kitty" for emergencies, and choose an anchorage that is suitable to their proposed length of stay. VERY FEW folks in NC have a problem, "yet" with THIS sort of long term liveaboards. Unlike in South Florida, most coastal North Carolinians can still distinguish between the two types. I can through binoculars, in a few seconds.

REGARDING THE ANCHORAGE IN QUESTION:
The "multi anchor mooring" liveaboard boats in Oriental's little harbor, are not just likely to do damage, ugly, & ill maintained to the point of looking "scary", even to liberal tree huggers, they are polluting the water, while making it impossible for others that might want to stay a couple of days, to anchor here as well. This is simply the worst IMAGINABLE anchorage for what they are doing! We are all, as NC cruisers, paying the price. Some is paid directly, by not getting to stop over in Oriental, and the rest is paid indirectly, in the changes and legal restrictions that WILL come to all of our boating freedoms, brought on by the irresponsible excessive few.

Imo, more laws are not the answer. We may not like what they come up with. I prefer persuasion. What ever happened to common sense? Perhaps with constant pressure, these folks will move on and not perpetuate the pattern. I suggested to "Town Dock" that a sign might be posted at the dinghy dock, saying...


WELCOME TO ORIENTAL! WHILE IN THE ANCHORAGE, "PLEASE" RESPECT THE RIGHTS OF OTHERS:

Stay out of the channels on both sides.

Project no generator noise (wind or otherwise) more than a few feet from your boat.

Lay to a single hook, not multi anchor moorings.

Use your holding tanks.

Keep OB motors DOWN at the dinghy dock.

And PLEASE... Limit your stay here to just a few days, or if broken down, two weeks at the most! Give others a chance.


(It might work for those few that DO care, but just don't know any better).
Mark

PS... To the OP I might remind you, that 99% of ALL normal, kind, polite behavior that we do or do not exhibit to one another, is not in any law books. We do not do these things, like hold a door open, or help a person up that's fallen, to comply with the law. We do these things to be "good human beings". In my book, I would MUCH rather be guilty of breaking a trivial law and pay the fine, than be a bad human being. Sure... There IS a grey area there, but the VAST majority of us can distinguish between selfish, rude, and inconsiderate people and behaviors, from their opposite. This sort of anti social behavior you exhibit and seem to believe in, can not be legislated. I promise... If you change your attitude, you will enjoy life more.

Kindness is its own reward!
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Old 22-09-2013, 16:00   #729
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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I've agreed with pretty much all of your posts! Well said, all of them...
I have put my two cents in there already, and will make one last shot at it.

....


Thanks for another great post Mark. Maybe one day the message will get through.
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Old 22-09-2013, 16:25   #730
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

You know Mark I actuall agree with what you say. The land folks really can't tell a good liveaboard from a bad one. We are all the same to the land folk and we are the problem. That's true in marinas and with the anchor outs.

The only real difference from being anchored long term in KW back when you did it or now either and Oriental is Oriental is dinky small. Really a few of those boats from the photo's don't look that bad. If the anchorage was sized for 15 -20 boats as it was before the marina went in, this would not even be a discussion.

I really don't think the long term anchor outs are going to really disappear any time soon. As the population increases so to does the proportion of folks who anchor out. Yes its pretty bad in Florida. Gee there are tons O anchor outs in the SF Bay and I is one of them. Though I consider myself a good ft cruiser / anchor out /annoying boating chic, as I keep my boat ship shape. Though its been 20 years since the hull shined.

Just so I'm clear, its OK if you anchor out, but not for others, that is the bad anchor outs, just wondering. Sorry I don't mean to be evil, I just is....
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Old 22-09-2013, 16:39   #731
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Mark Johnson: Best post of the day. Not sure how to put those smiley thingies in, but this gets a bunch of thumbs from me. Thank you for injecting a strong dose of sanity. I've been following this thread because Oriental has long been on my "must visit" list, and I'm finally going to get the chance next year when we head south. I sure hope this issue is resolved by then so we get a fair shake at dropping the hook for a few days.
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Old 22-09-2013, 17:03   #732
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

I don't know , maybe if there was proper social housing and welfare and medicare care and what not, then there would not be such a huge "bum" liveabord issue. I don't see it in European countries to any such similar extent.

I mean you can go around the UK and see many liveaboards on canals, most maintain their boats pretty well, a few are sad looking. everyone seems to handle the situation.

Seems more a reflection on the state of things then a boat issue really

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Old 22-09-2013, 17:03   #733
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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To the OP I might remind you, that 99% of ALL normal, kind, polite behavior that we do or do not exhibit to one another, is not in any law books.
Hear hear!


And your entire post as well.
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Old 22-09-2013, 17:08   #734
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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Mark Johnson: Best post of the day. Not sure how to put those smiley thingies in, but this gets a bunch of thumbs from me. Thank you for injecting a strong dose of sanity. I've been following this thread because Oriental has long been on my "must visit" list, and I'm finally going to get the chance next year when we head south. I sure hope this issue is resolved by then so we get a fair shake at dropping the hook for a few days.
Mark, Oriental is worth seeing. I grew up near Spa Creek and on the Magothy myself. Oriental is a bit like St. Michael's without the excessive tourist feeling. The French boat is a bit dirty looking and is reportedly planning to move on. But the town is really nice and a couple great pubs besides. You'll enjoy it.
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Old 22-09-2013, 17:12   #735
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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To the OP I might remind you, that 99% of ALL normal, kind, polite behavior that we do or do not exhibit to one another, is not in any law books.
Absolutly , but the more you read, the more you realise this thread has elements of

" hello mr Bum , could you kindly take your sh1t-heap and just bugger off some where else, anywhere else but here, cause you're annoying the nice people "

Then when mr Bum says " F you rich guy, Im not moving" we have a debate about courtesy and social niceties.

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