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Old 20-09-2013, 01:41   #556
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

It was Christmas Eve, and I didn't want to spoil the occasion with an argument.
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Old 20-09-2013, 03:35   #557
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That depends upon the right in question and type of resistance. One size does not fit all.

What's missing in this conversation are references to federal, state and local laws presumed to permit municipal enforcement against, and or to create restrictions upon boaters activities. As some have aptly pointed out, laws are promulgated to control peoples behaviour. If no law relating to a particular action or behaviour exists, said action and or behaviour is presumed to be legal. It makes no difference whether the action or behaviour is performed by a rich or poor, male or female, pink or orange person.

So, here we have a situation where boat owners aren't doing anything controlled or prohibited by law.

Case closed. No matter who you are, if you don't approve of perfectly legal behaviour, you cannot do anything of a legal nature to alter or prevent it. Even if 'it' is not a 'right'. This does not of course preclude appealing to public opinion or engaging in a campaign to create ordinances designed to prohibit a public nuisance, behaviour or activity.

Problem is, once you embark down that slippery slope you hazard losing control over the scope of the ordinance - which often ends up a more draconian measure than you ever believed possible. You end up affecting not only others but yourself. It always seems easier for legislators to enact laws that restrict everyone rather than to enact laws to achieve a limited desired result. Control only those who were the source of your discontent.
I fully agree with you and its what I've said throughout this debate. Certain protagonists what to turn it into a liberal versus conservative debate , a tactic all too common in US debates
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Old 20-09-2013, 04:44   #558
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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Then why not pass laws to control the anchorage , then when they run foul of them , proceed accordingly.

Dave
But that was what the OP was railing against. He didn't want new rules applied.

It's sad that we have to keep applying more and more rules because people can apply reason on thier own.
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Old 20-09-2013, 04:51   #559
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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But that was what the OP was railing against. He didn't want new rules applied.

It's sad that we have to keep applying more and more rules because people can apply reason on thier own.

I was never necessarily supporting the OPs position , I dont believe there are any rules to be applied at the present time anyway.

What I understand the OP was giving out was that there was a direct attack against them in the TownDock blog, yet no-one even asked them to move or discussed the situation with them

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Old 20-09-2013, 05:01   #560
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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That depends upon the right in question and type of resistance. One size does not fit all.

What's missing in this conversation are references to federal, state and local laws presumed to permit municipal enforcement against, and or to create restrictions upon boaters activities. As some have aptly pointed out, laws are promulgated to control peoples behaviour. If no law relating to a particular action or behaviour exists, said action and or behaviour is presumed to be legal. It makes no difference whether the action or behaviour is performed by a rich or poor, male or female, pink or orange person.

So, here we have a situation where boat owners aren't doing anything controlled or prohibited by law.

Case closed. No matter who you are, if you don't approve of perfectly legal behaviour, you cannot do anything of a legal nature to alter or prevent it. Even if 'it' is not a 'right'. This does not of course preclude appealing to public opinion or engaging in a campaign to create ordinances designed to prohibit a public nuisance, behaviour or activity.

Problem is, once you embark down that slippery slope you hazard losing control over the scope of the ordinance - which often ends up a more draconian measure than you ever believed possible. You end up affecting not only others but yourself. It always seems easier for legislators to enact laws that restrict everyone rather than to enact laws to achieve a limited desired result. Control only those who were the source of your discontent.
So it would be wise for these permanently moored boats to move on of thier own accord. By getting on thier soapbox they are speeding the process of creating the exact rules they are afraid of.

As a cruiser, it's a nuisnace to have anchoring restrictions but because cruisers don't abuse the system, it's not a big deal and most places will look the other way if you stay 8 days in a place that allows 7.
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Old 20-09-2013, 05:18   #561
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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I was never necessarily supporting the OPs position , I dont believe there are any rules to be applied at the present time anyway.

What I understand the OP was giving out was that there was a direct attack against them in the TownDock blog, yet no-one even asked them to move or discussed the situation with them

dave
Since you are so focused on the Letter of the Law, in America, we have this thing called freedom of speech. The blog is free to highlight the derelick boats and the people on them who need to have common sense explained to them.

The OP is free to comment back but it only speeds the rules he fears.
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Old 20-09-2013, 06:01   #562
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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Since you are so focused on the Letter of the Law, in America, we have this thing called freedom of speech. The blog is free to highlight the derelick boats and the people on them who need to have common sense explained to them.

The OP is free to comment back but it only speeds the rules he fears.
I never argued that what was expressed by TownDock wasnt allowed under various free speech deliberations, first amendment etc, though I argued that I would view it as borderline rascist and certainly intimidatory. It certainly wasn't very humane or compassionate to those less fortunate.

What I said was that either you have the laws and you therefore enforce them , or your just whining and the boaters are fully within their rights.

"explain" what to such boaters, Maybe Primadonna, cant move, or doesn't have any money to go anywhere or cant find another safe anchorage etc. No-one seems to have bothered finding out.


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Old 20-09-2013, 06:37   #563
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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I never argued that what was expressed by TownDock wasnt allowed under various free speech deliberations, first amendment etc, though I argued that I would view it as borderline rascist and certainly intimidatory. It certainly wasn't very humane or compassionate to those less fortunate.

What I said was that either you have the laws and you therefore enforce them , or your just whining and the boaters are fully within their rights.

"explain" what to such boaters, Maybe Primadonna, cant move, or doesn't have any money to go anywhere or cant find another safe anchorage etc. No-one seems to have bothered finding out.


dave
Wait a minute, so are you for following the letter of the law and anything not covered by a specific law is fair game or should we consider what is fair, reasonable and morally right.

You don't get it both ways.
- If it's the first, they should be able to aggessively apply unrelated rules (I can guarantee these folks are breaking a rule or two) and make them go away. I don't agree with this approach but if we only follow the letter of the law and morals are irrelevant, it's an acceptable approach.
- If we take the second option, they should police themselves and realize when they are creating a problem and unfairly monopolizing the harbor and move on without someone having to explain the obvious to them.

As far as folks without a lot of money, there are plenty of safe anchorages within a few miles. Sail the boat to one of them. If the boat is not seaworthy, they should go and talk to the local officials about thier situation and I'm sure help would be on the way. As others have indicated, the locals have provided food and assistance a new starter. At some point, it's not about them being in a tough situation but claiming to be in order to abuse the situation.
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Old 20-09-2013, 06:59   #564
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

I've read many, but not nearly all, of the comments in this thread. Tell me if I have this right...

1. There's a small harbor in Oriental, NC that has no regulations regarding how long someone can anchor.

2. There's some debate as to whether or not anyone has the right to create such laws even if they wanted to.

3. In 2002, a couple moves to Oriental, NC and sometime afterward starts an Internet blog called Town Dock.

4. In 2013 the creators of Town Dock begin complaining about certain boats in the harbor staying too long and this has escalated into a mob action, as there are no laws governing their complaints.

5. Most agree one of the boats is rather unsightly. All seem to agree another has a pink hull.

6. The owners of the unsightly boat can't sail because one lost his pension due to a governmental change in France and now they can't afford to pay for repairs so they can go on their merry way.

7. Some who have sufficient financial means to own a house AND a boat think the boats Town Dock targeted in their blog are hogging the harbor and need to leave so they have a place to stay if they want to stop at Oriental.

8. One threatened to call in his military and government contacts to "make life so miserable for those boaters that they might wish not only they weren't in Oriental but anywhere in the US" because he wants a place for his 40' trawler when he makes his trek down the coast.

9. Some of those who don't have the financial means to own a house and a boat disagree with might makes right.

10. There are presently 563 posts to this thread that was started 6 days ago.

Have I got that right so far?
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Old 20-09-2013, 07:04   #565
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

Julie:

Darn good synopsis, but you may have missed:
  1. There are some LIBERAL boat owners on CF.
  2. There are some CONSERVATIVE boat owners on CF.
And those two groups seem to have differing opinions about what the ACTUAL problem is in Oriental.
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Old 20-09-2013, 07:28   #566
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

Decent synopsis, but I think you missed the main debate, which is a very legitimate discussion regarding how long anchoring in a small harbor should be permitted before identifying such a stay as a nuisance.

I don't really think it's a whole lot different than someone doing the same thing on public land or roadways in an RV.

Municipalities in other states have developed laws governing the same behavior, so there should be little debate on whether it is possible to establish rules in this regard.

It does seem a shame, however, that this one instance is going to force the establishment of more laws regulating cruising. I'm generally in favor of less rules and better judgment.
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Old 20-09-2013, 07:34   #567
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pirate Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

I believe one of my snarky posts was removed but having slept on it, it wasn't nice anyway, and I guess there's every possibility the maligned poster is, in fact, the smartest person in the room. I was Not implying it was me.

As I've wished thousands of times, it's just a shame that the powers-that-be can't find a better way to deal with these individual problems than to come up with blanket restrictions affecting us all.
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Old 20-09-2013, 07:54   #568
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

A few correction/clarifications

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julie Mor View Post
I've read many, but not nearly all, of the comments in this thread. Tell me if I have this right...

1. There's a small harbor in Oriental, NC that has no regulations regarding how long someone can anchor.

2. There's some debate as to whether or not anyone has the right to create such laws even if they wanted to. False, there is no debate. It has been done and upheld by the court system.

3. In 2002, a couple moves to Oriental, NC and sometime afterward starts an Internet blog called Town Dock.

4. In 2013 the creators of Town Dock begin complaining about certain boats in the harbor staying too long and this has escalated into a mob action, as there are no laws governing their complaints. Way to use inflamatory language. No mob action just reasonable complaints about people monopolizing public spaces.

5. Most agree one of the boats is rather unsightly. All seem to agree another has a pink hull.

6. The owners of the unsightly boat can't sail because one lost his pension due to a governmental change in France and now they can't afford to pay for repairs so they can go on their merry way. No they are "claiming" to be unable to move along but thier actions appear to support the theory they are just using it as an excuse.

7. Some who have sufficient financial means to own a house AND a boat think the boats Town Dock targeted in their blog are hogging the harbor and need to leave so they have a place to stay if they want to stop at Oriental. No, anyone who would like to spend a few days does not have the oppurtunity to share in the use of this prime public space.

8. One threatened to call in his military and government contacts to "make life so miserable for those boaters that they might wish not only they weren't in Oriental but anywhere in the US" because he wants a place for his 40' trawler when he makes his trek down the coast. I believe you are taking the comment out of context. I believe the intent was while wrong the result when people abuse unwritten rules is there is often push back and it often gets ugly, not neccessarily that he was going to follow thru on it.

9. Some of those who don't have the financial means to own a house and a boat disagree with might makes right. Who was saying might makes right? I don't recall anyone saying such a thing. These people seem to be saying having less financial means entitiles them to unlimited use of this prime PUBLIC space at the expense of all others.

10. There are presently 563 posts to this thread that was started 6 days ago.

Have I got that right so far?
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Old 20-09-2013, 07:55   #569
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As I've wished thousands of times, it's just a shame that the powers-that-be can't find a better way to deal with these individual problems than to come up with blanket restrictions affecting us all.
Funnily we both agree with that sentiment , though maybe not on its execution

I just saw where crowd funding was used to raise $40k to help a homeless guy back on his feet. Maybe there's a way.


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Old 20-09-2013, 07:57   #570
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julie Mor View Post
I've read many, but not nearly all, of the comments in this thread. Tell me if I have this right...

1. There's a small harbor in Oriental, NC that has no regulations regarding how long someone can anchor.

2. There's some debate as to whether or not anyone has the right to create such laws even if they wanted to.

3. In 2002, a couple moves to Oriental, NC and sometime afterward starts an Internet blog called Town Dock.

4. In 2013 the creators of Town Dock begin complaining about certain boats in the harbor staying too long and this has escalated into a mob action, as there are no laws governing their complaints.

5. Most agree one of the boats is rather unsightly. All seem to agree another has a pink hull.

6. The owners of the unsightly boat can't sail because one lost his pension due to a governmental change in France and now they can't afford to pay for repairs so they can go on their merry way.

7. Some who have sufficient financial means to own a house AND a boat think the boats Town Dock targeted in their blog are hogging the harbor and need to leave so they have a place to stay if they want to stop at Oriental.

8. One threatened to call in his military and government contacts to "make life so miserable for those boaters that they might wish not only they weren't in Oriental but anywhere in the US" because he wants a place for his 40' trawler when he makes his trek down the coast.

9. Some of those who don't have the financial means to own a house and a boat disagree with might makes right.

10. There are presently 563 posts to this thread that was started 6 days ago.

Have I got that right so far?
11. The Town didn't have any of these problems until a marina development took place which enchroached upon the existing anchorage and reduced the space available to those not interested in paying to stay at the marina if they want to visit the town.

From the town dock website-

Letters: Overstaying Welcome In Anchorage | Letters To The Editor | TownDock.net, Oriental NC

As a property owner and fan of Oriental for the past 15 years, I’m following the ‘crowded’ anchorage issue with interest.

Apparently, according to the letters, many vessels by-pass us due to our tiny anchorage as referenced by Mr. Easby-Smith in his letter.

What hasn’t been mentioned is that our tiny harbor is a result of the development of Oriental Marina Harbor several years ago which was permitted by CAMA and presumably blessed by the town of Oriental.

From an economic development standpoint I’m sure it was a good decision for the town, but the development of the marina has taken up precious anchorage space and given our public waters to a for-profit entity in exchange for business/tax revenue. So, we have created this problem.

There are plenty of slips available in the marina, you just have to pay for them. That was the plan, right?

John Buck
Chapel Hill/Oriental
6/5/13
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