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Old 18-09-2013, 14:37   #406
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

Riparian water rights - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Under the riparian principle, all landowners whose property is adjoining to a body of water have the right to make reasonable use of it. If there is not enough water to satisfy all users, allotments are generally fixed in proportion to frontage on the water source. These rights cannot be sold or transferred other than with the adjoining land, and water cannot be transferred out of the watershed.
Riparian rights include such things as the right to access for swimming, boating and fishing; the right to wharf out to a point of navigability; the right to erect structures such as docks, piers, and boat lifts; the right to use the water for domestic purposes; the right to accretions caused by water level fluctuations. Riparian rights also depend upon "reasonable use" as it relates to other riparian owners to ensure that the rights of one riparian owner are weighed fairly and equitably with the rights of adjacent riparian owners"

Seems to me like a dock that displaces an existing anchorage would be past "a point of navigability"
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Old 18-09-2013, 14:55   #407
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delancy View Post
Riparian water rights - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Under the riparian principle, all landowners whose property is adjoining to a body of water have the right to make reasonable use of it. If there is not enough water to satisfy all users, allotments are generally fixed in proportion to frontage on the water source. These rights cannot be sold or transferred other than with the adjoining land, and water cannot be transferred out of the watershed.
Riparian rights include such things as the right to access for swimming, boating and fishing; the right to wharf out to a point of navigability; the right to erect structures such as docks, piers, and boat lifts; the right to use the water for domestic purposes; the right to accretions caused by water level fluctuations. Riparian rights also depend upon "reasonable use" as it relates to other riparian owners to ensure that the rights of one riparian owner are weighed fairly and equitably with the rights of adjacent riparian owners"

Seems to me like a dock that displaces an existing anchorage would be past "a point of navigability"
Since I was not around the area when the marina was going though the permitting process I can't say what happened in this particular instance. While Wikipedia may give you a general definition of the principle of riparian rights, I would not rely on such a general definition to determine how those principles are coded into the laws of any particular place.

My understanding is that the marina permitting process is not simple. Being somewhat familiar with NC politics I would be surprised if it was completely above board as well if you know what I mean. I said in a previous post I did not understand how one could sell what by law they can't own, but it has been done and if you look at the county GIS site you will see that every slip is s separately taxable parcel. The likelihood of it being undone is small. While Iím against the concept of selling the bottom in principal Iím not going to spend my money on legal fees to fight it, are you?
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Old 18-09-2013, 14:55   #408
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

I really don't see the marina blocking anything...last time I was in there it was the anchored boats were more of a "navigational" problem...
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Old 18-09-2013, 15:21   #409
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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Since I was not around the area when the marina was going though the permitting process I can't say what happened in this particular instance. While Wikipedia may give you a general definition of the principle of riparian rights, I would not rely on such a general definition to determine how those principles are coded into the laws of any particular place.

My understanding is that the marina permitting process is not simple. Being somewhat familiar with NC politics I would be surprised if it was completely above board as well if you know what I mean. I said in a previous post I did not understand how one could sell what by law they can't own, but it has been done and if you look at the county GIS site you will see that every slip is s separately taxable parcel. The likelihood of it being undone is small. While I’m against the concept of selling the bottom in principal I’m not going to spend my money on legal fees to fight it, are you?
I can't say what I don't know either and I am certainly not picking a fight with you personally. Sounds to me like the community chose to divest itself of some local waterfront color and small town charm in favor of growth proportionate to the number of condo units and marina slips that were built.

That's their choice, I just figure you make your bed so why are you complaining about it. The liveaboards/derelicts have always been there, that's not the problem, the problem is that marina development displaced the transients, who now no longer have a place to park. Maybe the community should have thought about that beforehand.
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Old 18-09-2013, 15:59   #410
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

Link to the marina/condo development website, 27 condo units and 110 slip marina. Didn't see any condo listings but 40' x 16' slips go for $45k, spots for catamarans go for $75k. Somebody walked away from that deal with some cash.

The development map shows they have their own stores and shops so that right there is taking money away from the existing businesses. Follow the money and see where it takes you, my guess it will take you out of town.

Oriental Harbor Marina, General Store & Real Estate Services : Oriental, NC
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Old 18-09-2013, 16:13   #411
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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Link to the marina/condo development website, 27 condo units and 110 slip marina. Didn't see any condo listings but 40' x 16' slips go for $45k, spots for catamarans go for $75k. Somebody walked away from that deal with some cash.

The development map shows they have their own stores and shops so that right there is taking money away from the existing businesses. Follow the money and see where it takes you, my guess it will take you out of town.

Oriental Harbor Marina, General Store & Real Estate Services : Oriental, NC
The real estate people down thjere have no yet recognized the bubble has popped. Three of those cat slips were put up for auction last year. A guy I know bid $15K a piece for them, the owner counter offered with $33K. He said forget it. There was only one bid. It would seem that the market value for the Cat slips is somewhere between 15K and 33K. The Marina I used to be at was asking 87K for cat slips. Thay haven't sold one since 2006, at the top of the bubble. I suppose someday they'll face reality.
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Old 18-09-2013, 16:15   #412
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

It's copacetic in Ayala Cove (but always remember it as Hospital Cove). Thirty dollars a night on the fore-and-aft moorings; fifteen for day-use at the docks. No squatters here, by golly.



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Old 18-09-2013, 16:39   #413
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delancy View Post
Riparian water rights - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Under the riparian principle, all landowners whose property is adjoining to a body of water have the right to make reasonable use of it. If there is not enough water to satisfy all users, allotments are generally fixed in proportion to frontage on the water source. These rights cannot be sold or transferred other than with the adjoining land, and water cannot be transferred out of the watershed.
Riparian rights include such things as the right to access for swimming, boating and fishing; the right to wharf out to a point of navigability; the right to erect structures such as docks, piers, and boat lifts; the right to use the water for domestic purposes; the right to accretions caused by water level fluctuations. Riparian rights also depend upon "reasonable use" as it relates to other riparian owners to ensure that the rights of one riparian owner are weighed fairly and equitably with the rights of adjacent riparian owners"

Seems to me like a dock that displaces an existing anchorage would be past "a point of navigability"
Thanks for posting....interesting read
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Old 18-09-2013, 16:42   #414
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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The real estate people down thjere have no yet recognized the bubble has popped. Three of those cat slips were put up for auction last year. A guy I know bid $15K a piece for them, the owner counter offered with $33K. He said forget it. There was only one bid. It would seem that the market value for the Cat slips is somewhere between 15K and 33K. The Marina I used to be at was asking 87K for cat slips. Thay haven't sold one since 2006, at the top of the bubble. I suppose someday they'll face reality.
Genius! The town gave up their anchorage for what? At best half the tax revenue they were hoping for? Forget Wall Street, Occupy Oriental
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Old 18-09-2013, 16:43   #415
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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Originally Posted by GothVanhellsing View Post
Move on i live here, I can vote here, My mail comes here. I love how the town dockers say that well bloblity bla bla boats hardly have ever anchored long term, when the letter that started it planly says in black and white that the Cape Dory I love using the free dock and leaving ass says every time he has come here over the last 10 years there has always been long term boats in the harbor. It's almost laughable the fine people at town dock don't even read the guest letter that started all of this.
You may very well live in the town limits, have voting rights and pay taxes. However, you do not own where you are anchoring. The public does. The decent thing to do is share the anchorage by moving periodically.
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Old 18-09-2013, 17:37   #416
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
It's copacetic in Ayala Cove (but always remember it as Hospital Cove). Thirty dollars a night on the fore-and-aft moorings; fifteen for day-use at the docks. No squatters here, by golly.
All the squatters are of course 2 miles away in Richardson Bay. Must be about 75 ish out there give or take a stray blonde now and then.

Love Angel Island,, but at $30 a night its a little spendy for this layabout squatter. But then again Sausalito / Richardson bay is a bit too noisy with all the boat traffic and ferrys running to and fro too.
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Old 18-09-2013, 17:46   #417
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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Genius! The town gave up their anchorage for what? At best half the tax revenue they were hoping for? Forget Wall Street, Occupy Oriental
Not at all, the county hasn't reassessed these slips, the poor owners are stuck paying taxes on what the county says they were worth, not what they are worth. If I remember correctly under NC law Real estate assessments were done like every eight years. You had 3 months to protest and after that you were stuck until the next reassessment in your area. Those numbers may be a little off but not by a lot. Before the marina went in the county was not getting any tax revenue on that land. Land values in the regular part of town might be 75K per acre. Now they have about 2 acres of water with 110 slips averaging maybe $55k per slip. So instead of 2 acres worth 150K, they have 2 acres assessed at about 6 million and that's just the raw land, it doesn't include the "improvements" because those are owned by the association and that's another tax bill. No wonder the county is keeping it's mouth shut about the marina.
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Old 18-09-2013, 17:59   #418
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pirate Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

Given that the county may have had issues with the stay-forever anchorers (they ain't cruisers) in the first place, perhaps it chose the marina over putting in a mooring field, knowing full well the impact on folks wanting to anchor in the protected harbor. In FL we can see examples of both approaches to dealing with the Forevers.
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Old 18-09-2013, 18:42   #419
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

Regarding the OP...

Others "may" want a point of view from someone who is a local, and knows the problem in Oriental all to well.

The anchorage here is only large enough for 4 boats, IF they all lay to one hook, on relatively short scope, hopefully set well with big chain.

It was meant to be a convenient "short" stopover for those traveling the ICW or staying overnight, before continuing their short cruise from New Bern to Ocracoke. It was never meant to be a liveaboard OR long term anchorage, and sighting that it has been abused this way in the past, is NO excuse to do it again! There are insufficient facilities for "long term" liveaboard use there, and FAR to little room.

In the last year, there have been two LONG term "nuisance boats" in the harbor, both on LONG scope multi anchor (homemade) moorings. One boat is an unattended derelict, and the other finishes the job of making this VERY small little anchorage unusable by others, because of his mooring system's occupying the entire space. He also kicks up his OB motor at the small public dinghy dock, which is bad form in any public anchorage.

These two characters have abused the privilege beyond belief, and ruined the anchorage for others. I know I wouldn't try to anchor in the space that's left. We avoid the place, solely because of these two boats. Most other cruisers feel the same way...

I have been sailing away on my own creations for 40 years, and on my most recent boat, have lived aboard FULL TIME for over 12, much of it on the hook. In visiting over 20 countries, and covering 20,000+ miles... I always sought out anchorages, facilities, and situations that were appropriate to my proposed length of stay. Sometimes it was years, while I worked on shore.

I can say without a doubt, that the small transient "courtesy" anchorage that was built and maintained by the little town of Oriental, is being abused by ANYONE who stays there for more than a week or so. It is not that sort of situation and not fair to other cruisers, OR the town of Oriental!

There ARE a lot of marinas to choose from in Oriental, ("The Boating Capitol of NC"), and more "appropriate" long term anchorages than one can count... THIS anchorage, however, is definitely NOT one of them.

Mark
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Old 18-09-2013, 20:03   #420
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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Regarding the OP...

Others "may" want a point of view from someone who is a local, and knows the problem in Oriental all to well.

The anchorage here is only large enough for 4 boats, IF they all lay to one hook, on relatively short scope, hopefully set well with big chain.

It was meant to be a convenient "short" stopover for those traveling the ICW or staying overnight, before continuing their short cruise from New Bern to Ocracoke. It was never meant to be a liveaboard OR long term anchorage, and sighting that it has been abused this way in the past, is NO excuse to do it again! There are insufficient facilities for "long term" liveaboard use there, and FAR to little room.

In the last year, there have been two LONG term "nuisance boats" in the harbor, both on LONG scope multi anchor (homemade) moorings. One boat is an unattended derelict, and the other finishes the job of making this VERY small little anchorage unusable by others, because of his mooring system's occupying the entire space. He also kicks up his OB motor at the small public dinghy dock, which is bad form in any public anchorage.

These two characters have abused the privilege beyond belief, and ruined the anchorage for others. I know I wouldn't try to anchor in the space that's left. We avoid the place, solely because of these two boats. Most other cruisers feel the same way...

I have been sailing away on my own creations for 40 years, and on my most recent boat, have lived aboard FULL TIME for over 12, much of it on the hook. In visiting over 20 countries, and covering 20,000+ miles... I always sought out anchorages, facilities, and situations that were appropriate to my proposed length of stay. Sometimes it was years, while I worked on shore.

I can say without a doubt, that the small transient "courtesy" anchorage that was built and maintained by the little town of Oriental, is being abused by ANYONE who stays there for more than a week or so. It is not that sort of situation and not fair to other cruisers, OR the town of Oriental!

There ARE a lot of marinas to choose from in Oriental, ("The Boating Capitol of NC"), and more "appropriate" long term anchorages than one can count... THIS anchorage, however, is definitely NOT one of them.

Mark
For starters it was built by the Army Core of Engineers not the town, and 2 it would be much bigger if they didn't let a marina take so much of it. You know land owners do have rights. Rights to build on the water is one of them but when you look at the scope of how much of the harbor they took you can see if the government back then didn't have their hand out to the highest bidder any sane person would say there is an over ridding public need to protect the water that is in the public trust. As for room for only 4 boats that's funny You can see in that picture posted on this same page there was more then 4 that day all behind the break water with room for another row of boats closer to the marina.
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