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Old 14-09-2013, 14:15   #16
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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Let's just deal with the situation as it stands today. No need to revise history.
Nothing being revised here, it's the truth. Boat living goes way back long before this country was even founded. There are houseboats still being used in in coastal states like WA (that are not often hit by Hurricanes) that go back well over 100 years.
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Old 14-09-2013, 14:16   #17
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

Your bay is not unique in respect to pressure put upon live aboards to go away. First moorings were installed and only boaters willing and able to pay were welcome. However, too much responsibility and expense for administration/maintenance of the moorings motivated municipalities to find a 'better solution'. Legal or not, the 'better solution' to emerge is the so-called 'restriction on anchoring'. I first saw this in San Diego upon my return from a 4 year + near global circumnavigation. Before I left on the voyage, living aboard while moving between 3 anchorages was possible. No more. The draconion restrictions there limit anchoring to 3 days in a month, with a permit in approved anchorages only. Caught in violation stiff penalties ($1,000+) and seizure of the vessel was/is possible. The boat, impounded in a ship yard would accumulate additional 'fees'. If the penalties and fees were not paid within a certain period of time, the boat would be 'disposed of'. I do not believe that meant it would be sold. It would probably be 'crushed'.

In the San Francisco Bay Area Clipper Cove was a point of contention regarding so called derelicts and live aboards. The primary source of complaints originated with weekend sailors who kept their boats in marinas. Their complaint was mainly that these aforementioned scawflaws took the better spots for anchoring, leaving insufficient room for the weekenders. The Development authority at Treasure Island would gather up dinghies and bicycles belonging to the 'scofflaws declaring them 'trash'. Locked in a chain linked enclosure, without giving notice of any kind to the owners, we were left to 'discover' what happened to our property. Employees of the authority destroyed an expensive bronze lock of mine without making any effort to cut the chain securing my bike.

Anchoring restrictions were codified I believe shortly after I left San Francisco in 2009 to begin my second near global circumnavigation. Consequently, live aboards have been pushed out, primarily into the San Joaquin Delta area. Less than ideal, but something I'll be trying soon. It's happening everywhere and deserves federal intervention for the purpose of at least passing judgement on the legality of these restrictions.
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Old 14-09-2013, 14:19   #18
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

After hurricane Wilma hit Coconut Grove, Miami, a lot of 'live-aboards' were damaged and I ran a support launch for the Red Cross. One dirty, disheveled and homeless sailor was a Korean War Vet. We got him cleaned up, took him for heart surgery at the VA and sort of forgot about him.

A month later he turned up at Coconut Grove Sailing Club, clean, healthy and back on his feet. He had ridden 3 buses for 3 hours just to thank us all for our kindness...

Anybody that has served his country get gratitude and help from my wife and I...She incidentally volunteered for Desert Storm.
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Old 14-09-2013, 14:20   #19
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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As a landlubber that lives on an island, I can give you my perspective on live-aboards in the harbor.

My taxes pay for your trash removal, your showers, your toilets, your toilet paper, your pumpouts, your water, your fuel spills, your police calls, your rescues (if needed), your fireboats, etc.

Yes, you hike up the hill to buy groceries, but that's about it. If you would like to pay a monthly fee towards maintaining the facilities that you use, and agree to pay the full cost of any cleanup associated with your boat, I'm fine with you staying.

Eagle Harbor does that by charging a monthly fee to boats that anchor for months in a designated area. Your boat also must pass some criteria for seaworthiness and such.

So, y'know, come join us. Just pay for your stay.
As a former boat owner in Pamlico County, NC (where Oriental is located) I can state that Gothvanhellsing has been in the county more than 6 months he is obliged to pay county property taxes on his boat at the same rate as real estate owners pay on their property. In NC at least landlubbers have no right to complain that live aboard boat owners are not paying taxes. They pay taxes at the same rate as everyone else. In fact the county gets a free ride on boat owners because non-resident boat owners get to pay county and city property taxes on boats simply docked in a county or city, even if they use virtually no services. There are no free pump outs in Oriental so sewage disposal is also paid for. If fact at $10 a pumpout for a 30 gallon holding tank the rate that the boat owners pay is much more than what home owners pay. I don't know how you think your taxes are paying for boaters toilets or toilet paper. If there is a tax payer provided toilet paper give away I would like to get in on it. I also have a broken toilet that needs a couple of hundred bucks in parts for repairs, can you tell me where I can get a new one free from the government? That would be so much easier than repairing the old one and for free!!! Fuel spill cleanup costs are directly recoverable from the boat owner by law, so I don't see what you're talking about there. Police and Fire are paid from property and sales taxes, both of which boat owners are obligated to pay in NC. Maybe in some states you have something to complain about, but not in NC

Of course this somewhat assumes that Gothvanhellsing has gone to the courthouse and listed his boat on the property tax rolls as required by law and that he's using the pumpouts at the commercial establishments in the harbor. You have done this haven't you Gothvanhellsing. If not I suggest you stop your complaining.
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Old 14-09-2013, 14:35   #20
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

I get a real kick out of Americans complaining about other people using up their tax dollars.

This coming from a country that spends in the $650 billion range on their military budget.

Worried about paying for a sailors trash removal? Hilarious!
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Old 14-09-2013, 14:44   #21
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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Somebody should tell Sailchic her new motor will have to be sent to Oriental to get together with the PINK sailboat. You know how purple and pink go together so well. LOL
To Goth, well done on sailing for breast cancer awareness......
You know,I just painted my handrails and dorade boxes pink today!.

I should note that pump outs in many places are partly financed by property taxes on boats. Least wise for Cali for sure.

I for one am not so fond of paying someone just so I can drop my anchor in a public location. I do however support the businesses I shop at and the marinas I stay at. I even pay income tax and my property tax on my boat pays for all sorts of things I'll never use. I figure it all sort of balances out in the end.
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Old 14-09-2013, 14:45   #22
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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As a former boat owner in Pamlico County, NC (where Oriental is located) I can state that Gothvanhellsing has been in the county more than 6 months he is obliged to pay county property taxes on his boat at the same rate as real estate owners pay on their property. In NC at least landlubbers have no right to complain that live aboard boat owners are not paying taxes. They pay taxes at the same rate as everyone else. In fact the county gets a free ride on boat owners because non-resident boat owners get to pay county and city property taxes on boats simply docked in a county or city, even if they use virtually no services. There are no free pump outs in Oriental so sewage disposal is also paid for. If fact at $10 a pumpout for a 30 gallon holding tank the rate that the boat owners pay is much more than what home owners pay. I don't know how you think your taxes are paying for boaters toilets or toilet paper. If there is a tax payer provided toilet paper give away I would like to get in on it. I also have a broken toilet that needs a couple of hundred bucks in parts for repairs, can you tell me where I can get a new one free from the government? That would be so much easier than repairing the old one and for free!!! Fuel spill cleanup costs are directly recoverable from the boat owner by law, so I don't see what you're talking about there. Police and Fire are paid from property and sales taxes, both of which boat owners are obligated to pay in NC. Maybe in some states you have something to complain about, but not in NC

Of course this somewhat assumes that Gothvanhellsing has gone to the courthouse and listed his boat on the property tax rolls as required by law and that he's using the pumpouts at the commercial establishments in the harbor. You have done this haven't you Gothvanhellsing. If not I suggest you stop your complaining.

Great post but last I checked there is one free pump out in Oriental at Clancy's marina. Greg is a good guy and a Fellow Veteran. When he put it in he got a grant for it, so he never felt right about charging for it's use. Yes this boat is registered in NC. Now as for pumping out, I compost my waist.
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Old 14-09-2013, 14:50   #23
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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You know,I just painted my handrails and dorade boxes pink today!.

I should note that pump outs in many places are partly financed by property taxes on boats. Least wise for Cali for sure.

I for one am not so fond of paying someone just so I can drop my anchor in a public location. I do however support the businesses I shop at and the marinas I stay at. I even pay income tax and my property tax on my boat pays for all sorts of things I'll never use. I figure it all sort of balances out in the end.

Cool
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Old 14-09-2013, 15:16   #24
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

You know, I've always thought that communities should welcome liveaboards! We (depending on location) pay property taxes on the boat, on the "land" under our marina berths when we are in one, sales taxes on everything we buy, fuel taxes on our fuel, income taxes to various bodies... hell, when I was a liveaboard in Alameda CA years ago I even paid to the mosquito abatement fund, and there were plenty of mozzies about!

In return, we don't send kids to local schools (usually), make much use of Police or Fire services, roads, welfare, water, and so on. Compared to the typical urban family unit, we put in a lot and take damn little back out. Model citizens, we are!

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Old 14-09-2013, 15:25   #25
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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You know, I've always thought that communities should welcome liveaboards! We (depending on location) pay property taxes on the boat, on the "land" under our marina berths when we are in one, sales taxes on everything we buy, fuel taxes on our fuel, income taxes to various bodies... hell, when I was a liveaboard in Alameda CA years ago I even paid to the mosquito abatement fund, and there were plenty of mozzies about!

In return, we don't send kids to local schools (usually), make much use of Police or Fire services, roads, welfare, water, and so on. Compared to the typical urban family unit, we put in a lot and take damn little back out. Model citizens, we are!

Cheers,

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Old 14-09-2013, 15:28   #26
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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As a former boat owner in Pamlico County, NC (where Oriental is located) I can state that Gothvanhellsing has been in the county more than 6 months he is obliged to pay county property taxes on his boat at the same rate as real estate owners pay on their property. In NC at least landlubbers have no right to complain that live aboard boat owners are not paying taxes. They pay taxes at the same rate as everyone else. In fact the county gets a free ride on boat owners because non-resident boat owners get to pay county and city property taxes on boats simply docked in a county or city, even if they use virtually no services. There are no free pump outs in Oriental so sewage disposal is also paid for. If fact at $10 a pumpout for a 30 gallon holding tank the rate that the boat owners pay is much more than what home owners pay. I don't know how you think your taxes are paying for boaters toilets or toilet paper. If there is a tax payer provided toilet paper give away I would like to get in on it. I also have a broken toilet that needs a couple of hundred bucks in parts for repairs, can you tell me where I can get a new one free from the government? That would be so much easier than repairing the old one and for free!!! Fuel spill cleanup costs are directly recoverable from the boat owner by law, so I don't see what you're talking about there. Police and Fire are paid from property and sales taxes, both of which boat owners are obligated to pay in NC. Maybe in some states you have something to complain about, but not in NC
No property tax on boats here, my man paid ~$80 for his yearly boat tabs. Downtown residents pay $100-$200 a month for water, the boaters were getting it free. Pumpout is free, and the park potties were trashed by the liveaboards that used them constantly. Now that liveaboards pay "rent", those that were abusing the system are gone. Showers are locked and visitors can request the code.

Monthly fee to anchor in Eagle Harbor is ~$300, as I recall. Pays for water, showers, trash and general police patrol. Also gives you the right to anchor in one place for more than 30 days, which is otherwise not allowed in WA.
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Old 14-09-2013, 15:36   #27
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

As has been pointed out previously, with the kind of tax money spent on "Arms", "Intelligence", and corporate welfare. Are we really going to squabble about the little bit spent on minor support of "Live aboard people". Really? I've paid school taxes as long as I have been a taxpayer, since I was 15yrs old. Yet I have not had one child in the school system, and I can go on and on about the services I don't use but pay for. I got bigger fish to catch. If you want to complain about what your taxes are paying for, go to a budget meeting at city hall, and find out where the real money gets spent. In my town the harbor is one of the biggest money makers for the city.
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Old 14-09-2013, 15:39   #28
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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No property tax on boats here, my man paid ~$80 for his yearly boat tabs. Downtown residents pay $100-$200 a month for water, the boaters were getting it free. Pumpout is free, and the park potties were trashed by the liveaboards that used them constantly. Now that liveaboards pay "rent", those that were abusing the system are gone. Showers are locked and visitors can request the code.

Monthly fee to anchor in Eagle Harbor is ~$300, as I recall. Pays for water, showers, trash and general police patrol. Also gives you the right to anchor in one place for more than 30 days, which is otherwise not allowed in WA.
Ouch $300.00 that is more then I paid for a slip in a marina. It included all that plus internet, and access to a small clubhouse.
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Old 14-09-2013, 15:55   #29
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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Monthly fee to anchor in Eagle Harbor is ~$300, as I recall. Pays for water, showers, trash and general police patrol. Also gives you the right to anchor in one place for more than 30 days, which is otherwise not allowed in WA.
Eagle Harbour as in Eagle Harbour at Cypress Island?
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Old 14-09-2013, 16:07   #30
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Re: Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

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Great post but last I checked there is one free pump out in Oriental at Clancy's marina. Greg is a good guy and a Fellow Veteran. When he put it in he got a grant for it, so he never felt right about charging for it's use. Yes this boat is registered in NC. Now as for pumping out, I compost my waist.
Composting takes care of the pumpout issue. I was referring to County personal property tax in my post, not state registration fees. If your mailing address is in Pamlico County you will get a property tax bill. The state sends registration records to the county every year so they'll catch up to you eventually. When I lived there property taxes on boats were a bit more than 1% of their value. The good news is that Boats are a depreciating asset so the tax goes down every year, not up. If you are paying county taxes on your boat then the locals have no right to complain about that. That said, Oriental harbor behind the breakwater is very small and when I tried to get in there with my boat last year there was not enough room around the three "resident" boats for me to anchor. Unlike you I don't have the option of anchoring behind the bridge, so I just left and went elsewhere. It looked to me like all of the "resident" boats had the option of going behind the bridge.

So what gives you a right to use the Harbor to the exclusion of everyone else that has a right to use the harbor? I take it the people of the town had no issue with you living in the creek behind the bridge. It would appear to me that the issue is the one that I just raised, that you and the two other resident boats use the small available space to the exclusion of everyone else, not that you and the two other resident boats are living on your boats in the town of Oriental. Do you suppose that if the town had three public parking places that three individuals would have the right to permanently occupy those spaces to the excusion of all others just because you got your butt there first. I don't think so.

As to your veteran's status, I thank you and honor your service, but would remind you that many of the people you are excluding from using the harbor are also veterans.
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