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Old 20-03-2013, 07:15   #16
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Re: Our Most Perfect Boat

sail everything before buying. enjoy the search--is the funnest part of owning a boat...until you sail away in something you enjoy sailing, that is....
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Old 20-03-2013, 12:48   #17
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Re: Our Most Perfect Boat

Thank you you have almost described our yacht Donegal breeze see youtube " donegal breeze sailing" few comments if i may be so bold: anchors CQR will never reset if it breaks out in a blow I Know we have a spray 33 we carry a 35 lb Delta, 40 Lb Manson Supreme and a 60 Lb fishermans anchot with 100 mts 3/8 chain + 20mts 3/8 chain on 100 mtrs on 20 mm nylon three strand + 10 Lb Kedge.
Heater diesel ans this shares the fuel tank. Gas cookers batteries with duel altanators engine driven + solar panel to the engine and wind gen to the 3 house batteries all insulated from the hull. We have buily our boat from scratch so would welcome any further questions... Loose the electric winched and install a monitor wind vane
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Old 20-03-2013, 18:50   #18
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Re: Our Most Perfect Boat

Hello everyone:

This thread and my previous thread have been incredibly informative. I feel bad that there has been some acrimonious debate about the merits of my question and line of reasoning. I would like to say that no one will make up our minds which boat we will ultimately buy except us. That being said, I believe in learning from what works for other experienced people to help narrow the field. Even if I was much more specific and asked something akin to,"I am planning on sailing from Boston to France by the northern route, leaving on January 21, 2014. I will be acompanied by my wife, three daughters age 6, 9 and 15 with a crew of 2 experienced sailors. What would be the perfect boat and how should it be outfitted and what provisions should I carry?", I would still get as many answers as there were respondents. I asked for and got many useful specifics. Thank you all! Now for the final piece(and yes some wise respondents have touched upon the subject), what is the best below decks configuration, and furnishings in your opinion? Please be specific if possible, and thank you to everyone who has contributed to my education!
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Old 20-03-2013, 20:27   #19
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Re: Our Most Perfect Boat

I think the best below decks config is the one you like. I have been on boats (French ones) where the inner space was of the 'open space' design. Hmmmm. Well, well, all the space, yes, but I DID NOT LIKE IT. I mean: nothing wrong with any specific layout, just get the one you like.

I like narrow interiors where everything is arranged along the central line of the boat. I do not like wide empty spaces. I do not like being tossed across voluminous interiors.

I do not like large entertainment sofas. I like comfortable sea bunks. I do not like nav tables and I do not need them.

I do not like heads located in the head because it is too rough there in the open water. I like the heads to be amidships.

I like the galley to be well ventilated (preferably just next to the companionways), with plenty of natural light and with slanted floor right before the stove bay (some modern boats have flat floor there- HORROR).

I like showers where I can sit and engine compartment that I can walk in.

I like ... ;-) but it is 03:00 here ;-)

Get what you like. That's the point I think.

b.
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Old 21-03-2013, 06:16   #20
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Re: Our Most Perfect Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by justwannadoit View Post
This thread and my previous thread have been incredibly informative. I feel bad that there has been some acrimonious debate about the merits of my question and line of reasoning. I would like to say that no one will make up our minds which boat we will ultimately buy except us. That being said, I believe in learning from what works for other experienced people to help narrow the field. ... Now for the final piece(and yes some wise respondents have touched upon the subject), what is the best below decks configuration, and furnishings in your opinion? Please be specific if possible, and thank you to everyone who has contributed to my education!
Glad to hear you're able to extract useful stuff out of all this babble. Don't worry about the acrimony ... there are a lot of participants who are just here to play.

As I mentioned, and as you've noted, below-deck cabin space is at least as important as other considerations if you're planning to be a liveaboard. There are specific layout considerations which are mostly a matter of taste, although I'm with Barn in not liking large empty spaces ... dangerous when underway.
  • You need good sea-berths for all those who are off-watch, which means someplace small and secure near the centre of the boat.
  • Good tankage is important; bigger is generally better for both diesel and water. Divided tankage is even better.
  • You need good storage spaces. Think about both large spaces for bulk storage as well as immediate-access storage. A balance of both is good.
  • I like hanging hammocks for storage, but they can't get in the way or come in contact with hard surfaces like masts, bulkheads or crew heads.
  • Good ventilation is vital. Opening ports and vents.
  • I like a U-shaped galley, with plenty of counter space ... you can never have too much counter space in the galley.
  • A propane oven. Two burners have always sufficed for us, but some like three.
  • I like a dinette that is off to one side ... keeps a direct path across the cabin straight.
  • I like a chart table, but it doesn't have to be a dedicated sit-down version that seems to be popular now.
  • In my opinion a fridge is nice if you can manage the power consumption and maintenance, but it's not needed.
  • Pressure water; not needed. Manual is better for water conservation and simplicity.
  • Never had a dedicated shower ... have not missed it yet. I can certainly see the benefits.
  • You need good access to all bilge areas, and especially to all thru-hulls.
  • Good access to engine, especially to routine maintenance locations is vital: oil check/change, raw water pump, filters, etc.
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Old 21-03-2013, 06:35   #21
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Re: Our Most Perfect Boat

Only a part of your lists is about the boat--the rest are all features. Let's break it down; may seem silly but here goes:

BOAT:
30 to 35 feet LOA
Masthead sloop or cutter
Full or fin keel
Skeg or transom hung rudder
Design that offers good accesability to all systems.


When you find the great boat based on the immutable criteria listed above, then you can get down to details but I think you are going to get crazily confused if you are looking at the level of detail below BEFORE narrowing down based on the boat itself.
EVERYTHING ELSE--all the below items can be easily replaced, purchased or modified and as for Dacron sails, well, other than a fancy racer, of course its going to be Dacron-yes? The diesel is of course one possible exeption, but unless you are looking at very old boats-the odds of a gasoline engine are slim to none.

I write a bit about this on my site www FOERFRONT dot com as I have helped many clients through this process.

One last item--there is a HUGE difference between a 30' and a 35' boat. Those five feet can add an additional 1/6 on length and a lot more in capabilities and complexity and costs. If you were looking at, for example, boats in the 43' to 48" range, those five feet would make less overall difference. So, is it 30 or is it 35? Nearly 90 percent will be a fin or full keel anyhow but very few boats in that range have transom mounted rudders. Many will be spade--what's wrong with that? My advice is to focus on the overall size, shape and capability of the boat itself and look at everything else as a changeable feature.



Hard Dodger
Slab reef fully battened mainsail with lazyjacks
Furling headsail with twin grooves
Self tacking staysail
Dacron sails
High modulus halyards
Heater
Bruce, CQR and Fisherman’s anchors
Dual electric/manual windlass
Autohelm
VHF radio
Plotter
Diesel engine
Three house and one engine battery
Wind generator
Full enclosed head
Dinghy
Three burner stove with oven
Magma or Dickenson BBQ

Captain Paul Foer
www. foerfront dot com
Annapolis, MD
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Old 21-03-2013, 07:01   #22
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Re: Our Most Perfect Boat

Interesting post, becuase it typically represents what "blue water" sailors "think" they want in a boat. In practice of course vast quantities of bots are bought with completely differing requirements.

Just for amusement Id like to offer a contrary view, and no offence Mike , just using your list

Quote:
You need good sea-berths for all those who are off-watch, which means someplace small and secure near the centre of the boat.
Yes but since these are virtually non-existent in modern boats, Youll have to come up with an alternative. Typically there is one good berth amidships, usually the dinette settee.

IN moderate downwind, the forcastle bunk can be used.

In practice multi-days trips are rare as a function of total days on the boat, hence its better to focus on at anchor or marinas berths , rather then "sea-berths" , great if you have both. You can always sleep on the sole at sea.

Quote:
[*]I like hanging hammocks for storage, but they can't get in the way or come in contact with hard surfaces like masts, bulkheads or crew heads.
Ive found that there are few places on a boat where hammocks can actually swing free, first they head butt you, secondly in any seaway they batter the contents to a pulp., and then few boats now have overhead fixture points.

Quote:
[*]I like a U-shaped galley, with plenty of counter space ... you can never have too much counter space in the galley.
A galley needs to be setup for the 90% applications, often at anchor or day sailing or in a marina. on Passage cooking can range from survival mode to gourmet, Whats a galley needs is sufficient space to allow a cook to produce good meals, thats all. ( and this is a very subjective decision) , some people what extensive galleys , some exist with a Primus stove!.

Whether its a U, linear, or otherwise, all can be used to a greater or lesser degree in different situations.

Quote:
[*]A propane oven. Two burners have always sufficed for us, but some like three.
Anything that allows you to cook as you wish, thats all. It could be electric, gas, microwave, or combinations, Many 3 burner stoves are so crowded that the 3 rings cant be used at once.

Quote:
[*]I like a dinette that is off to one side ... keeps a direct path across the cabin straight.
Yes very useful when stopped as the passage forward isnt blocked. Anyway in warm weather or underway who uses the inside dinette!!.

Quote:
[*]In my opinion a fridge is nice if you can manage the power consumption and maintenance, but it's not needed.
I think the vast majority of people would disagree and the prepondance of modern foods that need refrigeration is very high.

Quote:
[*]Pressure water; not needed. Manual is better for water conservation and simplicity.
Ans you wife will have the slippers in front of your armchair and the pipe ready when you come home. !!!

Quote:
[*]Never had a dedicated shower ... have not missed it yet. I can certainly see the benefits.
Again if you have the space, its a great feature. Most people would now regard it as a requirement.


I do think you must look at whats on the market today and ask yourself whats happening

* Euroboats tend to reflect design trends in Western Europe. ie light timbers, pastel laminates, dramatic highlights, soft edge, round edge. and above all open uncluttered spaces. Hence that is why these boats look like they do.

It may contradict whats "traditional" but open spaces with good handholds are fine and easy enough to handle. Ive been thrown across both traditional and open interiors, and the outcome is similar. Having said that, with care few are thrown about.
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Old 21-03-2013, 13:49   #23
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Re: Our Most Perfect Boat

Justwannadoit,

Great starter list. When I bought my first boat I looked at a bunch not knowing too much about anything. I chose one of the models that I had taught sailing on a few years earlier because I was most familiar with it and its sailing characteristics.

Hull material is a good thing to have on your list. I prefer fiberglass.
Cockpit location: aft for me
30 to 35 LOD, not LOA for me but I'd consider something smaller or larger depending on the design and price.
You didn't mention solar panels but they can be added later.
I kind of like the soft dodger because you can get it out of the way when you don't really need it and it looks better on a boat the size you are looking at. I like a lot of visibiity when I'm coming into a marina and a hard dodger just seems to get in the way.
Did you mention headroom? It's important to some.
Propane cookstove for me since I've really had some bad experiences with kerosene.
So, I'm throwing in my preferences which you really don't need to consider.
Good luck in your search.
kind regards,
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