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Old 24-09-2014, 13:00   #91
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Re: Minimalist Live Aboard Brainstorming

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Originally Posted by Wookiee_King View Post
Well RyanH wasn't lying, there's a boat load of Grampians for sale way within my price range. Am I just being ridiculous about wanting a shallow draft?
Kind of.

If you said you were looking at a 6 foot or more draft for the Bahamas I could see people recommending you go with something shallower. But if you are under 6 feet you will be fine in most places.

And when you get to the actual Caribbean the draft won't matter at all. It's pretty much deep right up to the beach in most of the places you will be going.
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Old 24-09-2014, 13:09   #92
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Re: Minimalist Live Aboard Brainstorming

There are two versions of the Grampian 26, fixed keep with about 4ft draft or swing keel with around 3ft with the board up, a little over six with it down. Either should work but the swing keel version is easily trailerable. Both versions are pretty stiff and very stable. There's not many places a 3ft draft boat can't sail.

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Old 24-09-2014, 17:31   #93
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Re: Minimalist Live Aboard Brainstorming

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FWIW, one vega did a circle of the pacific, starting and ending in the PNW. Another vega just recently completed a circumnavigation of the americas, around cape horn and through the northwest passage.
Im well aware of voyages undertaken by Vegas but it does not mean they are particularly well suited to the task. Like most boats they have their weaknesses that need to be addressed before they could be considered reasonably safe offshore. Almost any older racer/cruiser or cruiser/racer of similar displacement would be equally suitable after addressing their weak points and many will be much better performers. What tends to happen from what I see is that someone does an offshore voyage with the boat they have or can afford then write a book about it, then others being sheep like choose the same model because they don't do their own thinking and make a successful voyage and so it goes and pretty soon the boat achieves cult like status, deserved or not.

Steve.

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Old 24-09-2014, 17:43   #94
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Re: Minimalist Live Aboard Brainstorming

While I have admired Vegas from afar, they are very old school, narrow designs pretty much like a folk boat. Probably equal to a more modern 24-25 footer. Yeah.. they'll get you there but you're gonna be real wet along the way...
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Old 24-09-2014, 17:47   #95
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Re: Minimalist Live Aboard Brainstorming

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Well RyanH wasn't lying, there's a boat load of Grampians for sale way within my price range. Am I just being ridiculous about wanting a shallow draft?
I would stick to your guns on t he shallow draft... perfect for FL and the Bahamas. A big advantage of a small cruiser there is you can go places others don't go!
I had 6 ft + draft and it was restrictive, always wanted to do the B'mas with a real shallow pocket cruiser.. just tuck in anywhere.
Ran into a guy in Georgetown who had been exploring (west?) toward Cuba in 3-4 ft and up of water. NOBODY over there and a dozen big lobsters under every coral head.... sounded like quite an adventure...
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Old 24-09-2014, 18:23   #96
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Re: Minimalist Live Aboard Brainstorming

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Originally Posted by clockwork orange View Post
Im well aware of voyages undertaken by Vegas but it does not mean they are particularly well suited to the task. Like most boats they have their weaknesses that need to be addressed before they could be considered reasonably safe offshore. Almost any older racer/cruiser or cruiser/racer of similar displacement would be equally suitable after addressing their weak points and many will be much better performers. What tends to happen from what I see is that someone does an offshore voyage with the boat they have or can afford then write a book about it, then others being sheep like choose the same model because they don't do their own thinking and make a successful voyage and so it goes and pretty soon the boat achieves cult like status, deserved or not.

Steve.
Steve, how can you be this blunt? Why be honest if you could be nice?

;-)

+1!

We will have a beer one day. I invite.

Cheers,
b.
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Old 25-09-2014, 08:46   #97
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Re: Minimalist Live Aboard Brainstorming

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My Bayfield 25 couldn't sail its way out of a paper bag. It looked jaunty and all but was an embarrassment. A sailboat that won't sail to weather isn't worth having, and doubly so if sailing on the cheap.
HI ! I agree 200%
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Old 25-09-2014, 13:03   #98
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Re: Minimalist Live Aboard Brainstorming

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HI ! I agree 200%
Me also, which is why i always suggest looking at how a boat rates for performance under phrf here in the US. Back in the 70s and 80s the MORC rule turned out some really wholesome boats that made great pocket cruisers that sail very well upwind in a breeze and are still competitive in phrf fleets. I own 2 boats in this size range and the Lindenberg 26 in particular is a huge boat with a phrf of 168, same as a J24 but it has 6ft headroom, room for a hard dinghy on the foredeck, 20 wide sidedecks, wider than most 30 ft boats and the distance from the companionway to the mast bulkhead is more than a J35 or Ericson 35 so it feels huge too. With a few modifications it would make a excellent minimalist long distance cruiser on a real budget that would shame much larger dedicated cruisers. Its just one but there were many great boats out there that would make the usual suspects look silly if only people could get past having to go with what someone else has already "proven" for them.

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Old 25-09-2014, 14:49   #99
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Re: Minimalist Live Aboard Brainstorming

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Me also, which is why i always suggest looking at how a boat rates for performance under phrf here in the US. Back in the 70s and 80s the MORC rule turned out some really wholesome boats that made great pocket cruisers that sail very well upwind in a breeze and are still competitive in phrf fleets. I own 2 boats in this size range and the Lindenberg 26 in particular is a huge boat with a phrf of 168, same as a J24 but it has 6ft headroom, room for a hard dinghy on the foredeck, 20 wide sidedecks, wider than most 30 ft boats and the distance from the companionway to the mast bulkhead is more than a J35 or Ericson 35 so it feels huge too. With a few modifications it would make a excellent minimalist long distance cruiser on a real budget that would shame much larger dedicated cruisers. Its just one but there were many great boats out there that would make the usual suspects look silly if only people could get past having to go with what someone else has already "proven" for them.

Steve.
"...the distance from the companionway to the mast bulkhead is more than a J35 or Ericson 35"

NO WAY
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Old 25-09-2014, 16:01   #100
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Re: Minimalist Live Aboard Brainstorming

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Im well aware of voyages undertaken by Vegas but it does not mean they are particularly well suited to the task.
Agreed. I owned a Vega for five years, back in the 80's. Wonderful little boat. But I cant imagine choosing it to do a Pacific Circle or an Around The Americas Circle. The guys who did were constrained by budget and might well have made their voyage in a number of other inexpensive boats with similar results.

One particular problem is the deck stepped mast without a compression post inside the cabin. The Vega relies on the main bulkhead for support, which is not quite up to the task. Both sailors had to reinforce the bulkhead.
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Old 25-09-2014, 20:22   #101
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Re: Minimalist Live Aboard Brainstorming

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"...the distance from the companionway to the mast bulkhead is more than a J35 or Ericson 35"

NO WAY
rk
Yes,Way, I am a boat builder by trade with a fair bit of design experience and these days do a lot of repair and modification work so spend time on a lot of different boats, tape measure in hand and when i see something of interest i measure it. The Lindenberg 26 is is a very clever design in many ways, its about as big a 26ft boat as i have ever seen with powerful performance to boot. The large saloon was achieved by doing away with the usual vee berth which allowed the b/head to be moved further forward than normal, combined with a fairly short cockpit. The exceptionally wide side decks were achieved by giving the boat wide beam and high freeboard which means you have enough height above the settees to sit comfortably under the sidedecks which in turn allowed for a much narrower trunk cabin thus the wide sidedecks. The high freeboard and no fwd cabin also allowed for the trunk cabin to end just ahead of the mast which allows for a very large fore deck. The designer was Lee Creekmore. The high freeboard, long waterline and higher than usual immersion rate would be good traits for a distance cruiser imho.

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Old 25-09-2014, 21:07   #102
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Re: Minimalist Live Aboard Brainstorming

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Originally Posted by onestepcsy37 View Post
Agreed. I owned a Vega for five years, back in the 80's. Wonderful little boat. But I cant imagine choosing it to do a Pacific Circle or an Around The Americas Circle. The guys who did were constrained by budget and might well have made their voyage in a number of other inexpensive boats with similar results.

One particular problem is the deck stepped mast without a compression post inside the cabin. The Vega relies on the main bulkhead for support, which is not quite up to the task. Both sailors had to reinforce the bulkhead.
Yes, there were a lot of very good designs built in the early days by Erickson, Ranger, Cal, Islander and of course the Lindenberg and with sensible upgrades most would be every bit as suitable as the Vega or especially the Contessa 26 but all of them have weaknesses that would need addressing, The Ranger 26 for example is a great sailing boat that is damn near a minute a mile faster than the Vega or Contessa but has the same issue of inadequate mast support, and ridiculously small cockpit drains, The Lindenberg and Contessa don't have bridgedecks to keep water out of the cabin and would be hard to rectify since they both lack sliding hatches. The nice high cockpit coamings on the Vega which continue across the back would probably hold twice the volume of water as the more normal setup which is not a very seaworthy feature especially if combined with small drains, and yet they get by. Another benefit of the high freeboard of the Lindenberg is that the cockpit sole is well above the waterline which allows it to have large drains and it would be a realativly easy upgrade to create an open transom.

Steve
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Old 26-09-2014, 00:08   #103
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Re: Minimalist Live Aboard Brainstorming

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rk
Yes,Way, I am a boat builder ... The Lindenberg 26 is a very clever (?)design in many ways, its about as big a 26ft boat as i have ever seen with powerful performance to boot. The large saloon was achieved by doing away with the usual vee berth which allowed the b/head to be moved further forward than normal, combined with a fairly short cockpit....

Steve.
Sure (I'm only an architect) ! I'd like to see YOU live 24/7 aboard such a layout ! No permanent double bed ? The head where the boat pitching is the worst ! When I was looking for my 5 th sailboat, the head next to the companionway was high on my list... Your Lindenberg looks great as a weekender, not a live aboard except for a solitary monk ! Remember our friend Wookiee King is 28 I assume you're more competent than I am to judge the sailing quality of a sailboat but I lived 5 years aboard a 31 & a 33 footer & I know what is needed "to live happily ever after". One small sailboat Wookiee mentioned is the Westerly Centaur 26; to me that would be a very good live aboard choice & Westerly are built with Lloyds certificate . In England they keep their value much more than in the USA where few people know them... They might not look as "sexy" as more recent production sailboats, but I trust the Brits when it come to built a seaworthy little ship sailboatlistings.com/view/44628
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Old 26-09-2014, 06:51   #104
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Re: Minimalist Live Aboard Brainstorming

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Sure (I'm only an architect) ! I'd like to see YOU live 24/7 aboard such a layout ! No permanent double bed ? The head where the boat pitching is the worst ! When I was looking for my 5 th sailboat, the head next to the companionway was high on my list... Your Lindenberg looks great as a weekender, not a live aboard except for a solitary monk ! Remember our friend Wookiee King is 28 I assume you're more competent than I am to judge the sailing quality of a sailboat but I lived 5 years aboard a 31 & a 33 footer & I know what is needed "to live happily ever after". One small sailboat Wookiee mentioned is the Westerly Centaur 26; to me that would be a very good live aboard choice & Westerly are built with Lloyds certificate . In England they keep their value much more than in the USA where few people know them... They might not look as "sexy" as more recent production sailboats, but I trust the Brits when it come to built a seaworthy little ship sailboatlistings.com/view/44628
Actually the layout is much the same as a couple of well regarded cruisers, the Vancouver 27 and Cape Dory 25D. Imho the vee berth on a small boat is a poor arrangement for a couple to sleep in unless one of you is a double ampuetee, you cant sleep there underway and it usually ends up as a sail bin anyway. The area ahead of the doors on the Lindy contains p&s hanging lockers and the head in the center facing aft,with countertops each side and a large sail locker. The location of the toilet is only a couple of feet ahead of the mast. It is very easy to convert either settee into a pullman double berth that is parallel so you can both have legs, and the quarter berths are huge, at 39" wide with sitting headroom even at the foot end. Its a very sensible layout. Btw, friends of mine have a Westerly Cenatuer in my mooring field, they were taking it out for a sail last night when i was down there walking the dog, its tiny boat and very slow, at a phrf of 291 its over 2 minutes a mile slower than the Lindenberg, i do like twin keels though. As you may notice, i like boats that sail under any conditions, otherwise i would have a motor boat. Actually the Albin 25 trawler may suit the OP quite well, great little boats and quite capable of the trip to the islands and shoal draft and trailable.

Steve.
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Old 26-09-2014, 08:02   #105
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pirate Re: Minimalist Live Aboard Brainstorming

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Sure (I'm only an architect) ! I'd like to see YOU live 24/7 aboard such a layout ! No permanent double bed ? The head where the boat pitching is the worst ! When I was looking for my 5 th sailboat, the head next to the companionway was high on my list... Your Lindenberg looks great as a weekender, not a live aboard except for a solitary monk ! Remember our friend Wookiee King is 28 I assume you're more competent than I am to judge the sailing quality of a sailboat but I lived 5 years aboard a 31 & a 33 footer & I know what is needed "to live happily ever after". sailboatlistings.com/view/44628
That's the real problem with all the smaller boats: lack of room. I don't care how spartan you can eat and sleep, to actually liveaboard comfortably for the long haul, you need a lot of gear and tools that casual cruisers wouldn't consider having aboard the boat. Most of their tools are at home in the garage with the scuba tanks and spare anchors.

Doing the kind of cruising we all say we do requires a lot of stuff. Weekenders are camping out comparatively. Sure, bring the kayaks along this week! The long-distant cruiser has the kayak on deck, next to the SUP, and dinghy trailing along behind.

By the time you get all that stuff secured along with the diesel and water jugs, toss in some solar mounted hither, and the windgen yon, rain catcher, radio, long-range wifi antenna, sunshade, propane tanks, Magma, outboard on the pushpit, and maybe some clothing drying on the lifelines ... welcome to liveaboard cruising on the small boat.

And I suspect the more cluttered, less shipshape the vessel (and captain) appear, the more likely one is to be approached by water cops. Not my favorite thing. Oh yeah, I left out radar and the watermaker and the weatherfax, etc. Had to ... no room to install them, and not enough power to run 'em, and likely not enough $ to buy 'em.

I suspect the OP would be fine with a smallish good sailing boat for a year or so in the keys and Bahamas but inevitably, as one collects gear and tools of the trade you begin to cramp your own style. And OP, learn to deal with 4' or so of draft in the shallows because it really matters out in the ocean. From the keys eastward is called the Thorny Path for a reason.
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