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Old 16-08-2015, 15:07   #16
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Re: Making the liveaboard decision. help!

Are you near a river? That could get you started, and keep your project close to hand. Long commutes and projects aren't good bedfellows.

Refits can be very expensive, and in a new buy you will lose a lot of value simply by removing the "for sale" sign.

You might find your desires and dreams change when you see what is involved and what is realistic. This can be a good thing.

I was on a site last evening researching ventilation...I'm 50/50 on whether to have an engine at all, and my unorthodox solution for a motor would ruffle a few feathers hereabouts. Anyway, I found one short writeup about a couple that resurrected a lovely old boat, maybe it's interesting. There's other trawler stuff on that site as well:

Something Old, Something New: Restoring Life To Vagabond | | PassageMaker

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Old 16-08-2015, 15:50   #17
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Re: Making the liveaboard decision. help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by markmc View Post
......................
......................
1- I am a bit claustrophobic and at 6'-4" so the thought of wedging into a small engine room is less than desirable.
2- Is it better to smaller 40~50 trawler or larger 50~60 cruuiser?
3- Ready to go or Refit.
4- buy something now, smaller or cheaper and then trade up when we're ready to go full time.
................................
markmc, First, I would say that if we were restricted to introducing only topics or questions that were new, creative and never asked before, then we would have very little activity. A great benefit of a forum such as this is that anyone is free to skip by topics they find boring or repetitive.

I'm a sailboat cruiser, but I share a number of your concerns. I've isolated four of your questions above that I can comment upon.

1- I'm an inch shorter than you and I also have concerns about access in small spaces. Look at the variety of solutions in design. Many, even smaller, boats have huge access by virtue of an entire flooring space hinged and able to swing away. There's great creativity in design solution for this, but it's difficult to refit. Surprisingly, the engine access room is not always related to the size of the boat. You can adapt as well. I keep a foam "boogie board" used for body surfing as a torso pad that I can lay across some of my engine in order to position myself in comfort for some work.

2- If you will be a cruising couple, forty feet should be suitable. You may decide that you want more, but I don't think it's needed and the smaller boat will give you more access to slips, anchorages & inland navigation options.

3- As already said, every boat will have some refit needs, but be careful to choose your battles. You're own skills and expense criteria are important here. Don't underestimate the perils or wood rot and metal corrosion. You should be able to find a sound hull and deal with one or two of the big items such as engine, wiring, electronics, plumbing, tanks, cosmetics, galley, hydraulics, etc. There are too many good boats on the market with failures in a limited number of systems to accept a full "project" boat! You can learn enough by maintaining and not refitting everything.

4- If you know what your final desire would be then, buy it now. Anytime you change from one boat to another there is a cost in time, money, adapting and learning. I may be blind by my own behavior here because I've been cruising the same boat for 31 years, but it's been a great choice for me!
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Old 17-08-2015, 11:34   #18
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Re: Making the liveaboard decision. help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by micah719 View Post
Are you near a river? That could get you started, and keep your project close to hand. Long commutes and projects aren't good bedfellows.

Refits can be very expensive, and in a new buy you will lose a lot of value simply by removing the "for sale" sign.

You might find your desires and dreams change when you see what is involved and what is realistic. This can be a good thing.

I was on a site last evening researching ventilation...I'm 50/50 on whether to have an engine at all, and my unorthodox solution for a motor would ruffle a few feathers hereabouts. Anyway, I found one short writeup about a couple that resurrected a lovely old boat, maybe it's interesting. There's other trawler stuff on that site as well:

Something Old, Something New: Restoring Life To Vagabond | | PassageMaker

Here's a link to the Elco site with the article on this in WoodenBoat Magazine. These Elcos are very cool motors but to really cruise with one you'd need a big generator.
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Old 17-08-2015, 11:45   #19
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Re: Making the liveaboard decision. help!

A boat you might not have thought about but might work for you is the Krogen 39. This boat is really set up to cruise a couple in comfort & the engine room has standing head room. The biggest engine room I think I've seen in a boat this size. You also might want to take a look at the Great Harbor N37. Probably the biggest 37 footer around & an interesting concept. The Diesel Ducks & Nordhavns are good blue water options.
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Old 17-08-2015, 12:04   #20
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Re: Making the liveaboard decision. help!

There is a big difference from an airplane to a boat. Spending three hours on a plane is quite different from living three years on a boat. And living in a boat inside a marina, is also quite different than crossing oceans.

Why don't you rent a boat to see if it really fits you?

Best of luck!
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Old 17-08-2015, 13:01   #21
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Re: Making the liveaboard decision. help!

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Originally Posted by Dulcesuenos View Post
Mark, yes we have owned cats and monos, power and sail. By no means an expert but know from experience the following
Cats excell at anchor especially when its rough.
Same with offshore traveling off or downwind.
Trawlers and monos are very rolly at anchor, unless they are huge, stiff and very heavy.
You will spend some 75%more time at anchor
People can get very sick at anchor or underway
Lots of dreams and hard work are flushed down the toilet when one person gets sick or freaks due to just one bad weather induced incident.
And lastly this is a social forum, if I didn't want to answer something I had said before I simply wouldnt. Some people want it treated as a library

Sent from my LG-LS980 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
I toured several cat's at the miami & Ft. L boat shows last year. They were very roomy in the living spaces and it appears the newer designs even move the master stateroom between the hulls. But even on the masters that are in one of the hulls, they create a suite by tanking over an entire hull. Looks like the only drawback is windows and walk around the bed space.

What has been your experience with marinas? Have they charged you more due to the beam? When at anchor, and hit with a beam wake or wave, is there anything to the contention the as the one hull rises on the wave the other falls into the swell creating a sharper roll than a mono hull?

As we are cruising for pleasure not transportation, and I am very familiar with being disciplined on making the 'go' ~ 'no go" decision. In my aircraft, it's not pressurized so I can't fly over the weather. From a practical standpoint this means your really have to pay attention to the current conditions and forecasts. Otherwise, you can rip your little wings off. A very bad day indeed.

That is a plus for cats, as they can go faster than a trawler when outrunning an unplanned weather event or contrary inlet.

Do you perform any of your own maintenance? If yes, what do you think about access for not only planned service, but unplanned such as when you are underway?

I noticed when surfing the sales sites that most cats are sail boats, a few motor sailers. I have read that the trend is toward pure motor. Is that what you think? I would think, to go motor only would cut out a big resale market when my walker will no longer make it down the dock

As the sleeping quarters and heads are split between the hulls, does this mean two sets of holding tanks, etc. And does it require separate pit stops to empty or fill each side? Is that a hassle, or just something you get used to?

regards
mark
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Old 17-08-2015, 13:28   #22
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Re: Making the liveaboard decision. help!

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markmc, First, I would say that if we were restricted to introducing only topics or questions that were new, creative and never asked before, then we would have very little activity. A great benefit of a forum such as this is that anyone is free to skip by topics they find boring or repetitive.

I'm a sailboat cruiser, but I share a number of your concerns. I've isolated four of your questions above that I can comment upon.

1- I'm an inch shorter than you and I also have concerns about access in small spaces. Look at the variety of solutions in design. Many, even smaller, boats have huge access by virtue of an entire flooring space hinged and able to swing away. There's great creativity in design solution for this, but it's difficult to refit. Surprisingly, the engine access room is not always related to the size of the boat. You can adapt as well. I keep a foam "boogie board" used for body surfing as a torso pad that I can lay across some of my engine in order to position myself in comfort for some work.

2- If you will be a cruising couple, forty feet should be suitable. You may decide that you want more, but I don't think it's needed and the smaller boat will give you more access to slips, anchorages & inland navigation options.

3- As already said, every boat will have some refit needs, but be careful to choose your battles. You're own skills and expense criteria are important here. Don't underestimate the perils or wood rot and metal corrosion. You should be able to find a sound hull and deal with one or two of the big items such as engine, wiring, electronics, plumbing, tanks, cosmetics, galley, hydraulics, etc. There are too many good boats on the market with failures in a limited number of systems to accept a full "project" boat! You can learn enough by maintaining and not refitting everything.

4- If you know what your final desire would be then, buy it now. Anytime you change from one boat to another there is a cost in time, money, adapting and learning. I may be blind by my own behavior here because I've been cruising the same boat for 31 years, but it's been a great choice for me!
Thank you for your kind welcome. I will try to be a positive force on the forum, content police just get under my skin.......

I have read that engine access under the sole can make the salon noisy underway and also the maintenance debris can muck up interior if you spill. But it does make sense that by opening up that space from the top would optimize the interior volume of the living space by making it perform double duty when wrenching on the systems.

My concern on the retrofit is that some folks seem to have to do a major rebuild after less than 2,000 hours while some seem to contend that a lower horsepower diesel should run 20,000 without an overhaul. I know that a lot of that is dependent on proper scheduled maintenance being performed but it appears their are two types of owners: Type one - very careful and considerate of the equipment and two - weekend warriors who used the boat a lot in the first few years and have let it rot for the past 5.

I thought well, if I budget to yank and overhaul the engines as part of the refit, I would at least know what I am dealing with from the get go and not get caught in a compromising situation due to the fault of others.

Of course, might be throwing away money on a perfectly serviceable power plant. I guess it boils down to how risk adverse I am.

I am starting to come around to your way of thinking regards buying the boat now versus later. I live in Atlanta and therefore am 6 hours from any salt water. I own a couple businesses and so it is hard to carve out free time, I just wonder if I'll be guilty of letting the boat rot.

Whereas you have been doing this for 30+ years. How big is your boat? I have read that sailboats can be dark and interior space limited. How many total adults share your living space?

Do you take the boat out to cruise it, or is typically moored?

Thanks for sharing
mark
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Old 17-08-2015, 13:42   #23
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Re: Making the liveaboard decision. help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Song View Post
There is a big difference from an airplane to a boat. Spending three hours on a plane is quite different from living three years on a boat. And living in a boat inside a marina, is also quite different than crossing oceans.

Why don't you rent a boat to see if it really fits you?

Best of luck!
I am afraid that if I start chartering I'll make an rash decision. I tend to be a "burn the boat" kind of person and it has worked out well for me. On my first real job with career potential, I was always telling my manager how what they were teaching related to my past experience. After an hour of that, he sort of got frustrated with me and said " Mark, only look back if that's where you want to end up" Good advice, so I never look back.

My wife of 40 years, has learned the same. It's funny, we cry every time we pick up stakes and move, but are extremely happy once we settle in the new place.

I tend to be gung ho, but I know that making an expensive purchase is well served by walking away from more deals than is comfortable. Most times you have to lose a few great deals to even know what a great deal is. The good news is that it is always Ground Hog Day. Tomorrow will present it's own set of special deals and with a little practice even I can learn french.

Here is another unsolicited life lesson learned by counseling many, many couples over 20 years: Happiness is a choice. Yes, life can deal some very bad hands, but happiness can be found as you journey through them.

Speaking of charters, are you aware of any companies that you would recommend?

Thanks
mark
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Old 17-08-2015, 13:55   #24
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Re: Making the liveaboard decision. help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by markmc View Post
.....................
....................
Whereas you have been doing this for 30+ years. How big is your boat? I have read that sailboats can be dark and interior space limited. How many total adults share your living space?

Do you take the boat out to cruise it, or is typically moored?

Thanks for sharing
mark
Mark, I don't think that you can determine the space you need by comparing what others do. My wife and I moved aboard a narrow 30' sailboat 43 years ago when we were fresh out of college and everything we owned could fit in our Volkswagon "bug". Later, we lived comfortably on a 33' boat as our children grew to 7 & 9 year old. Our son & daughter were with us until they left as young adults on our 41" boat that we cruised regularly to the Bahamas. We are "empty-nesters" now on our 41' and we have cruised fulltime since retiring 13 years ago.

Yes, our sailboat is dark, but not dark enough without keeping plants on the shelves just inside our portlights. We spend much of our lives in the bright sunlight in our cockpit and we enjoy the "cave" below.

I'm sure all we own could still fit in a car if we owned a car.

You may want more light, more stuff and more space,- 'nothing wrong with that!
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Old 17-08-2015, 13:56   #25
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Re: Making the liveaboard decision. help!

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A boat you might not have thought about but might work for you is the Krogen 39. This boat is really set up to cruise a couple in comfort & the engine room has standing head room. The biggest engine room I think I've seen in a boat this size. You also might want to take a look at the Great Harbor N37. Probably the biggest 37 footer around & an interesting concept. The Diesel Ducks & Nordhavns are good blue water options.
It appears that the trawler community is dividing into a few specific groups. The under 40' crowd, the 45' to 60' crowd, and the 'are you serious, that looks like an island not a boat' gang.

Reviewing the for sale sites it looks like you pretty much dial in any length by adjusting the age of the craft you are willing to accept.

Scout, what type of boat do you have? What do people at the sunset cocktail hour say about their trawlers?

As most of the time is spent on the hook or tied up somewhere, I wonder if my wife will jump overboard if she can't get away for some alone time. It looks like you have to get above 50' in order to have a 2nd stateroom. Most of all of them have a sun deck, pilot house, salon/galley combo. A VIP suite typically on 45'+ and a third stateroom on 55'+

Outside of marina cost and hull maintenance aren't the operating costs pretty similar (of course on the same level of complexity).

I am planning on going to trawler fest in Maryland this fall. I will make it a point to check out the Krogen.

Thx
mark
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Old 17-08-2015, 14:07   #26
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Re: Making the liveaboard decision. help!

Hmmm, we have lived aboard cats since 1995 and have clocked up over 75,000 miles. We have not experienced the cat negative issues that are mentioned. However, it would be some challenge to transport a wide beam cat several hundred miles overland.
Frankly, all the boats mentioned can be good choices. As has been mentioned, it is likely a better idea to gain experience of possibilities by chartering before making a decision.
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Old 17-08-2015, 14:08   #27
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Re: Making the liveaboard decision. help!

I am concerned that if I buy small and its the wrong decision I'll take a bath making a switch. Plus it sounds like your wife loves you more than mine , just kidding.

Did you home school your children? We did, not an easy feat in the 70'80's We took them K through 12. Both went to university and graduated with two degrees each in three years. My eldest - accounting, economics, then MBA and CPA. Now he is a practicing CPA in his own firm. His brother, the more creative one, came out with a marketing and business mgmt degrees and then started his own retail operation which in spite of the economy is doing well after 8 years. Sorry for the rabbit hole.
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Old 17-08-2015, 14:13   #28
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Re: Making the liveaboard decision. help!

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Hmmm, we have lived aboard cats since 1995 and have clocked up over 75,000 miles.
How big is your cat and how many folks live aboard full time? It looks like a fairly late model cat approx 50' can be found for $300~$400k, so that is promising. Also, can't beat the wide open spaces.

Is your cruising typically near the shore or are you a blue water guy?
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Old 17-08-2015, 14:16   #29
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Re: Making the liveaboard decision. help!

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Here's a link to the Elco site with the article on this in WoodenBoat Magazine. These Elcos are very cool motors but to really cruise with one you'd need a big generator.
Looks like the transport idea is ill founded due to the distance. That would leave open buying a place at the beach and then living there while the project proceeded.

Might work as I am planning on buying beach rental property anyway to keep my fingers in an appreciating market and also some rental income for the cruising kitty.
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Old 17-08-2015, 14:16   #30
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Re: Making the liveaboard decision. help!

Get ready to have fun. Looking for a boat is a blast, buying one is an even bigger blast & selling your boat is the best of all because it means you get to start all over! Just don't get in a hurry. The more boats you look at the better. You'll quickly realize that the typical 40' trawler has considerably more living space than most 40' sailboats. I can't imagine 2 people needing more room than that. I've always believed that the smallest boat that will do the job is the way to go. Easier to handle & easier to maintain, especially for a first boat. We've got a Scout 30 which has plenty of room for us right now but we still work so we're not full time cruisers. https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q...0+owners+group
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