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Old 01-02-2012, 11:36   #46
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Re: Liveaboards .. Men V Women

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Originally Posted by Coops View Post
I think that everyone has the right to have their dream, but it is definitely harder for women to fulfil it because of the preconceived notions that others, particularly men, put on them. They can walk into a chandlery/boat sales business and be guaranteed that one of the salespersons will hint that their husband should come with them next time. Even harder is a female working as a salesperson in these businesses and having to deal with the chauvinist/mysogenistic attitudes of some of us males who think that a woman cannot possibly know enough to help them. There are, thankfully, a lot of ladies out there sailing, in charge of their own yachts and life, and i tip my hat to them because they usually have had to be more determined to get there than the equivalent male.

I have done yacht sales, and now work in a chandlery, and have seen all these things happen.

Coops.
I work in a chandler, am female (an in addition quite young...). Customers generally seem to prefer asking the males for more technical things... Sometimes when I have helped a customer, he will purposely ask another when it switches to something more stereotypical "male". It's funny to catch them at this..

My boyfriend had the sailing dream. I originally wanted to drive around europe in a camper van. I didn't even know that people sailed the world, or lived in boats. Otherwise it just as well could have been my dream.
OP: Here's a really cool lady, by he way: Teresa Carey's Sailing Simplicity and the Pursuit of Happiness Blog

I think much is social conditioning, some is genetical, but above all you cannot really take a statistical average and dump on a individual. If a girl is homey and wants to take care of her grandchildren it isn't really necessarily because she's a female. Categorizing too much means you end up losing sight of the actual person.
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Old 01-02-2012, 12:11   #47
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Re: Liveaboards .. Men V Women

The problem with looking at a question such as this is getting a balanced opinion.
Most of the people on a forum like this are male and the small percentage of women on here are those with a genuine interest in sailing.
For men and women who had the dream and it did not work out for one reason or another talking about it may be hard or difficult hence why I said they could send something in confidence.
It also follows that for those who's dream died are less likely to be on a forum like this so it is difficult to get the other side.
As cruisers we are also less likely to meet those who do not enjoy the life.
I have to say that at one point we had decided that we would go "home" because my wife was not enjoying it. She rally did have difficulty adapting.
I won't bore you with a long story but now my wife is loving this life and at the moment cannot envisage going back. (who can work out a woman's mind????)

I am trying to balance the argument but it is difficult
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Old 01-02-2012, 12:28   #48
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Re: Liveaboards .. Men V Women

We have started sailing 30 years ago. We helped bring boats down south and moved them north. We moved to the midwest and got a small boat on an inland lake. We took our 4 kids with us and taught them how to sail. We wanted to be on the water, the kids came with us. We moved back to the east coast. Kids grew up, we got a boat, then sold it and got our present boat. We told the kids that '22 yrs old was check-out time' , they knew from an early age that Mom and Dad would live on a boat.

There are no boy chores or girl chores on the boat. We have developed a routine to get things done. I would rather be at the helm while we are motoring, and Matt is a better sailor. We treat all chores/tasks as needed.

We both miss the kids and grandkids. One of our sons went to Antarctica for a year as a pastry chef. We encouraged him. He understands that we have a life to live. Our oldest son was hit by a drunk driver and had his leg amputated. Car verses bike. We left the boat and rented a house to take care of him while he recovered. He is fine now and flourishing. Our daughters like that we live on the boat because they got all our stuff.

I am a person, not just a parent, or a daughter. I love living on the boat. I skype or facetime with the kids and grandkids. I make time to see them, but they make time to see us on the boat also.

I miss the garden lots more than I miss the house. A house seemed to demand too much of my time. I would rather be doing stuff than cleaning and upkeep needed to maintain a land based home.

It is much better for my family to see me happy and healthy and accept that I am there for them, if they need me. That can happen on the boat. I gave my children a sense of independence and freedom and expect them to give me the same gift.
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Old 01-02-2012, 13:23   #49
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Re: Liveaboards .. Men V Women

No difference. The women I have sailed with have been absolutely wonderful. Firstly My darling wife, the Admiral. Could not wish for more. Our daughter, she was 9 years old when we took her out of school, now she is a Chief Mate 3000t. My late mother in law, 78 when we started, sailed with us till she got Altzheimers and passed away at 86. Our friends Darlene and Kim, Beth, Chris and the list continues. Did the Bahamas with 6 Women and me, Never had a better time, it was a complete hoot. Thank your stars they're different to us, because they are better, way better, or maybe I am just damn lucky.

We struggle to think of life on land. This is where we "blong"

The adventures of yacht Gilana

PS I do the anchor because I've got the ugly hands, Laura does the maneuvering because she is better at it. If you want to see a cruising couple that will not last, just look out for the Male standing at the wheel barking at his dear love on the foredeck struggling with the windlass and chain.
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Old 01-02-2012, 13:36   #50
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I am trying to balance the argument but it is difficult
This whole discussion started with the assumption of gender differences and that women ruin the dream for their men. That line of thinking is never going to lead to balance.

How about if we actually listen to what is being said, rather than insisting that the voices here are the exception?

It sounds to me like the typical successful cruising couple is one that never had much use for traditional gender roles even before they got to cruising around together. Cruising requires a constant shifting of roles, so this actually makes a lot of sense and would probably provide a much more fruitful line of inquiry.
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Old 01-02-2012, 13:39   #51
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Re: Liveaboards .. Men V Women

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Originally Posted by Nostrodamus View Post
The problem with looking at a question such as this is getting a balanced opinion.
Most of the people on a forum like this are male and the small percentage of women on here are those with a genuine interest in sailing.
For men and women who had the dream and it did not work out for one reason or another talking about it may be hard or difficult hence why I said they could send something in confidence.
It also follows that for those who's dream died are less likely to be on a forum like this so it is difficult to get the other side.
As cruisers we are also less likely to meet those who do not enjoy the life.
I have to say that at one point we had decided that we would go "home" because my wife was not enjoying it. She rally did have difficulty adapting.
I won't bore you with a long story but now my wife is loving this life and at the moment cannot envisage going back. (who can work out a woman's mind????)

I am trying to balance the argument but it is difficult
Haha, I read your article on difference between women/men. Balanced indeed. I think I saw about EVERY sitcom cliche I've ever seen/heard of (and I don't even watch TV). I realize you try to be funny, but it still makes you dumber just reading it.
By the way, here's a sexy chick with armpit hair (warning: nudity): http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr....JHBpuGzWWtc%3D

Open you mind (:
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Old 01-02-2012, 13:54   #52
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Re: Liveaboards .. Men V Women

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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
I'll bake a cake for sex...

Ooops. Sorry misread that bit.
it better be a great tasting cake.
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Old 01-02-2012, 14:24   #53
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Re: Liveaboards .. Men V Women

Well it is the Captains dream but it was my idea to do it.
how will it turn out? I guess time will tell as we are about to start our dream in less than 2 weeks....well finding the boat.
We get on really well together on land so why not on a boat....I do the cooking he does the man stuff, if either of us needs help in either we are there at the drop of a hat.
I'm a very strong headed woman and just hate ,this we can't do that, but I also know what I can do and can't do so am happy for the Captain to do his thing.
Oh by the way i'm the fisherman in this story too, to catching, gutting and cooking, and love it.
As a mother of 3 I know i'm going to miss my kids hugely but hope that they will come visit and we visit them often.
But as the others have said I've done my bit in raising them and now it's my turn to live my life.
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Old 01-02-2012, 15:20   #54
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Re: Liveaboards .. Men V Women

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Originally Posted by Greenhand View Post
This whole discussion started with the assumption of gender differences and that women ruin the dream for their men. That line of thinking is never going to lead to balance.

How about if we actually listen to what is being said, rather than insisting that the voices here are the exception?

It sounds to me like the typical successful cruising couple is one that never had much use for traditional gender roles even before they got to cruising around together. Cruising requires a constant shifting of roles, so this actually makes a lot of sense and would probably provide a much more fruitful line of inquiry.
If i didn't want to listen to what was said I would not have put the question up in he first place.
I am enjoying reading the positive replies from those who are really enjoying the life and hopefully we may all learn something.
Certainly you will see from the replies that happy sailing as a couple comes from a partnership. This may involve traditional roles or not. What it does involve is the working together and taking into account each others strengths and needs.
I will again point out that for some people it does not work and those people are not liable to be on the forum. i have great respect for them as they tried something which so many people say they are going to do and don't.
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Old 01-02-2012, 16:46   #55
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Re: Liveaboards .. Men V Women

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worth repeating, thanks! I thought chauvinism was sort of dying, but now that I have a midsize boat, I realise it's not so at all. EVERY time husband and I are somewhere and chatting about the boat, without exception the person we speak with turns to HIM to ask technical/boat questions. At which the Handsome Husband, bless his heart, points to me and says, "Ask her - she's the owner/skipper."
I have copped that a lot. Taking women to buy cars or bikes,

They start to talk to me, I say, talk to her, she is the buyer not me,

I am just here to make sure you dont rip them off,

Pisses them off chronically, But they still keep trying to sell me some thing,

Its very annoying, Male Chauvenistic crap. Women are more than capable in their own right,
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Old 01-02-2012, 17:55   #56
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Re: Liveaboards .. Men V Women

When guests come aboard to crew, they often don't have a skill set to match Wonderblond, but they commonly want to take over whatever job she's doing in order to help out. It becomes hard to resist saying "Let's let Wonderblond handle this douse because I don't want rookies on the foredeck in this much wind."

I'm guilty of chauvinism myself. We refinanced the boat a few months ago, and had it surveyed by a woman. I was a bit nervous that she might not appreciate all the guy stuff I'd done on the boat, like installing a dual Racor filter system. But she was fabulous, clearly the best surveyor with whom I've ever worked.

Lesson learned.
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Old 01-02-2012, 18:29   #57
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Re: Liveaboards .. Men V Women

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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
I'll bake a cake for sex...

Ooops. Sorry misread that bit.
Nah. A cake takes too long to bake. I've had a good response with just baking cookies. Toll House Chocolate Chip seems to work well.
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Old 01-02-2012, 18:45   #58
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Re: Liveaboards .. Men V Women

Some of the key phrases in the OP include, my dream, difference between men and woman; and give up every thing.

The premise is that it is the mans dream, don't tell ZeeHag cause you will be toast. If it the mans dream and not the woman's what right does a man have to dictate what should happen, just it is not the right of a woman in a relationship to dictate what they both do. Forget gender for a moment every cruiser dream is different, men and women are both people last time i looked so why should their dreams be identical. The phrase give up every thing, but cruising should be about gaining not giving up. If either party wants to spend weeks or even months doing some thing else what is the problem.

The reasons why things don't work out may include the original decision and how it was made, every one is more committed to a goal if the are a part of the decision. The decision to cruise should be part of a life style decision, the question that i would pose to the OP is was the discussion based on lets go cruising or was the OP wife's dreams also included and catered for.

The attitude of some/many men in relation to women when it comes to sailing has been illustrated by the posts. Lets take the chandlers store situation. When i go into a store i always tend to seek out a woman if there is one working there. Why, because there is a greater possibility that she will actual listen, be more attentive to detail and will show me the same respect that i will show her. The anchoring "thing" exposes the worst kind of sailor. As one of the posts said that he threw out the anchor for the reasons stated. Yes there are some physical differences between men and women, but that does not stop there being "equality in difference". OK so men are often physical stronger than women; so what i am stronger than most men, does that give me rights over them. The reality is that many of the same men are better rag sailors than me. We have attributes in different areas, equality in difference.

My personal bias is that if i was to cruiser with some one else on my boat or theirs it would be most likely be with a woman because i can not stand the Alpha Male attitudes displayed so often in and around boats. If the person i am sailing with is a better sailor than me, which is entirely possible, i would encourage them to be that captain, skipper or however you like to describe the role. If your talk to the women on the forum who are single/ sail solo you will find that most would prefer to sail with a partner but find it difficult to find a man who wants to cruise and who's ego can deal with the fact that it her boat and that she is the captain.

To put the whole thing in a sentence, men who loose out normal do because of their own attitudes and stupidity.
Sorry if i have offended anyone, just calling it the way that i see it.

Regards and best wishes

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Old 01-02-2012, 20:21   #59
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Re: Liveaboards .. Men V Women

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We are starting our third season of full time cruising and liveaboard. I am in my sixties and it was a dream of mine since I was a teenager. I met my girlfriend about 6 years ago and she was into boating when I met her. She was keen to go cruising. Sold the house, most of the stuff and took off.

Now three years and 8000 sea miles into it, I sort of miss the house more than she does. She would like to see her kids and grandkids more, but feels that it is the price for our fabulous lifestyle. However, I don't exactly miss the house, I miss some of the functions of the house. I used to have a workshop and I miss being able use it and make things. I miss being able to leave my guitar out all the time instead of packing it up each time I use it, etc. Our boat closes in on me in dark winter evenings. If I could have a workshop on the boat, I would not need the house. Don't misunderstand, I love the cruising life, but there are things I miss on land.

I have met a lot of cruising couples where one of them misses or wants to hold on to the house. I often ask them what is about the house that they want or need. I never get an answer that the house provides a missing function (like a workshop or music room). Usually, the person I am asking (often a woman) cannot articulate what it is about the house that they need or miss.
Sounds like you need a bigger boat with Workshop.
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Old 01-02-2012, 23:39   #60
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Re: Liveaboards .. Men V Women

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Some of the key phrases in the OP include, my dream, difference between men and woman; and give up every thing.

The reasons why things don't work out may include the original decision and how it was made, every one is more committed to a goal if the are a part of the decision. The decision to cruise should be part of a life style decision, the question that i would pose to the OP is was the discussion based on lets go cruising or was the OP wife's dreams also included and catered for.

You are indeed right. It was my dream from when I was knee high to my fellow sperm. I cannot remember a time when I did not want to live aboard an cruise. On the first night I met my wife I told her of my dream and she has had over 20 years knowing this. Along the way we sailed as often as we could. She loved it and over time my dream became her dream.
When it got to the time when we could go we originally planned to wait a few years until our two boys finished school although we were not too happy about the education they were receiving. I was getting wobbly nerves by this time knowing everything I was asking her to give up.
It was my dear wife who suggested we take the boys out of school and go now. I was still unsure. All three of them were so enthusiastic and just wanted to do it. In the end we did sell up and go but without the wife pushing for it then I doubt it would have happened. She is the motivation, not me but I am also aware of her fears and needs as well. We day sail where possible and she has her own reserves of cash should she ever need to fly home. She is also aware that if things do not work out I will sail home with her and sell the boat. She is more important.
She did get some wobbles herself at the beginning of winter so flew home with the boys for a couple of weeks whilst I prepared to boat to return if need be. after a short while back home all three said it was only then they realised what a wonderful life we had on the boat as a family and how much they missed it. They have been back a few months now and each day they love the life more and each day I understand what a wonderful family I have.
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