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Old 07-04-2010, 18:21   #1
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Liveaboard How-To ?

So I have been searching around on the Net and have found some resources on the sociological aspects of moving from land to water, and some safety tips and so on, but for some reason haven't found much info on what sort of boat to choose.

Here's the deal - I have pretty much no boating experience, but I learn fast. I want to live on a boat in Vancouver, British Columbia, pretty much for the rent discount. It's not necessary for me to actually go anywhere on this boat, but if I COULD go somewhere, I probably would; I am in Los Angeles almost 6 months of the year, so if I could cruise over on my boat that would be ok, and if I could go down to like Cozumel or something that would also be cool. I have a scuba diving certification, so if there are any special kind of boats related to that, or special mods, it might be a consideration.

I'm adventurous, and sort of mechanically inclined, as in have done some major work on motorcycles. If things were to go wrong, I could in theory figure out how to work on things myself. I've also done some long-distance solo trips, ie rode across Canada on a motorcycle.

I'm small and not particularly opposed to tiny spaces. I am self-employed, working at home on the internet. All I really need is a desk and a bed and a fridge. I'm totally fine showering at the marina.

So I had four questions -

1, what the heck kind of boat do I want? This is just for me. Do I want a sailboat or a powerboat? Which one's cheaper and easier to maintain, cuz that's the one I want, I can learn to sail. I have about $20k to spend, the less the better.

2, are these small boats that people live in really fit for crossing the seas? ie there is an ad for a 27' sailboat. 27ft sailboat near skytrain Does that boat look ok? Could I go from say vancouver to cancun on it?

3, what are the logistics with crossing borders on a personal boat? IE, as a Canadian citizen I am permitted to reside in the US for no more than 6 months/year. How would this be measured if I was sailing around the US area? If I were to be sailing in the US for 8 months, would that be considered illegal? If I sail past the US, docking as I go along, does that "count" towards my US time?

4, how fast do these things go? If I sailed from vancouver to LA how long would that take?
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Old 07-04-2010, 20:13   #2
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Based on the questions you ask and your admitted lack of knowledge and experience with boats I suggest you have a long way to go, metaphorically speaking, before you would be ready for the trips you suggest. The winds and waves between BC and LA can be very strong and very large. Going south you have the prevailing winds and current with you, going downhill in a sailing sense. Coming back is like climbing a steep mountain in the middle of a big storm. In short, the west coast is not a good place to go sailing as a beginner on your own.

Also if you are trying to live on a small budget, living on a boat in LA is not the place. More boats than places to put them in LA so dock space is generally expensive and there are no easy places to anchor for free and live long term.

I think before you try this you should take some classes, read some books, go sailing as a crew member. Learning to sail is quite a bit more than the transition from a car to a bike.

All that being said, none of us were born expert sailors. Everyone had to start and learn somewhere. Just think you should think about wading in the shallow end before you jump off the high dive.

Good luck on your quest.
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Old 07-04-2010, 20:27   #3
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Hey, thanks for the reply,

sorry for the confusion, I don't want/need to live on a boat in LA, as I have a place there; mainly I would live in Vancouver which is where I would reside on the boat; but if I decided to go somewhere on the boat from Vancouver, I am just wondering how long these sorts of trips take and what kind of boat is required for them.

As in, if someone asked if they could take a 50cc scooter from Vancouver to New Orleans it would not be recommended; if they had a larger scooter or even a small 250cc cruiser, they will have some considerations for their trip and it's not what most people are going to choose for the journey, but in theory it's fine and you can make the vehicle itself safe for it.

So I guess what I'm asking is, if I had a few months sailing experience, is a 27' sailboat like a 50cc scooter or a small cruiser or electric bicycle or what? And does that one in particular look ok, is that model too old to be worth considering, are there special problems with that model or age of boat that make it pointless to consider? etc.
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Old 07-04-2010, 20:51   #4
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this is a list of off shore sail boat you could start with . Mahina Expedition - Offshore Cruising Instruction .good luck with your plans
scott this is a boat i looked at last week it could do what your asking however the deck need http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/va...680847794.html work it at the vancouver yatch club
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Old 07-04-2010, 20:55   #5
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Well the analogy doesn't quite carry over from bikes to boats. Small is not worse per se, the quality of the build is generally more important. Of course size matters to some degree. Smaller boats bounce around more at sea, harder to make headway against a strong wind, and are slower. Speed of a sail boat depends to a great degree on the length of the boat.

27' boat figure typically 5-6 kts (that's +/- 6-7 mph), a 40' boat maybe 7-8 kts (+/- 8-9 mph). BC to LA would be a long haul. Also parts of the coast have very few places to stop so once you get in the ocean you have to keep going. Also, some of the places you might stop can be inaccessible due to big waves that block the entrance during storms.

Age is not necessarily bad, again it comes back to quality and also condition. Plus you need to get a boat appropriate to the trip. Some boats are built to race, some built as a big roomy house, some to sail safely in the worst storms, some good enough for sailing close to home on a nice day but not recommended for a long ocean trip.

Let me put it this way. How would you answer if I asked you what car I should buy to drive from BC to LA? Well it would depend. Do I want to take my time, live in comfort, take everything I own and four friends with me? Get a van or motorhome. Do I want to get there as fast as possible and go by myself, but have a limited budget? Get a Toyota. Do I have a lot of money and want to impress the LA girls? Buy a Ferrari.

I could go on for hours making up various scenarios but I assume you get the point. Your question is too broad and you need to narrow down the parameters. To do that you need to have a little more background and knowledge about what to ask. Learn a little bit about boats and sailing first.
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Old 07-04-2010, 21:30   #6
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I write to discourage your plan to own a boat.

As a previous post mentioned, different boats are designed for different functions. Some boats want to race, others want to cruise, others work for a living. Arguably, boats--at least true boats--are not designed to become floating condos.

One thing nonboaters never seem to understand is that boats have souls. Really. And when a nonboater purchases a boat without ever intending to take it to sea, the boat withers. The first sign of this is that the boat begins to leak when it rains--this happens even more frequently in places like Vancouver--and the nonboater responds to this horrible situation not by fixing the leak, but rather by waddling down to K-Mart and purchasing a blue plastic tarp and affixing it loosely to the boat. The nonboater does not realize that for a true boat, this is a cruel form of torture.

A buddy of mine owns a marina where liveaboards are actually welcome. Sometimes nonboaters approach him and ask whether they can torture a boat at his marina in order to save rent. When this happens, he tosses the nonboater a length of three-strand and asks them to tie a bowline. When they are unable to do so, he advises them to look elsewhere.

You want advice on how to live aboard? Here it is: first, learn to tie a few knots. bowline, round turn + two half hitches, rolling hitch, cleat knot and reef knot. Now learn to splice at least two types of line. Next, learn how to plot a course, forecast the weather, and find the North Star. Now learn the points of sail, how to reef, and how to keep the bilges clean. Finally, decide what religion you belong to when it comes to anchors.

You get the point. And if at that point you can return to this forum and say, "It's not necessary for me to go anywhere on this boat" with a straight face, you'll understand why the liveaboards of this world don't want you as a neighbor.

It's because boats have souls.
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Old 07-04-2010, 21:44   #7
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50cc=27'?

Your comparison is in the ball park. However I'd suggest a better comparison would be to compare a loaded 50cc scooter with a loaded 27' production fibreglass. In both cases you'd be lucky to complete the trip. With one you can get off and walk...

You're trying to combine 3 different purposes in one boat. A boat that could be live aboardable in Vancouver (gets real cold, right?) is going to be expensive, and in most cases, unsuitable for traveling the west coast, which has a reputation for bad weather, long distances and few safe harbours. Living aboard in LA sounds expensive and inconvenient, even before you buy the boat. And the sort of boat that suits living aboard is, again, not likely to be suitable for cruising down to Mexico and back. The sort of boat that's good to learn on is not likely to be good for living aboard or for cruising.

Not to mention that cruising is an inherently slow process. You won't find many mentions of fast cruising, mostly because those who try it rapidly find how dangerous and unpleasant it is.

Cruising has been described as fixing boats in exotic locations, and many involved spend years doing it. To fit it in with a schedule of months or weeks is just not going to work in a way that most would consider pleasant.
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Old 07-04-2010, 21:47   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wreckoning View Post
I am in Los Angeles almost 6 months of the year, so if I could cruise over on my boat that would be ok, and if I could go down to like Cozumel or something that would also be cool.
I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm, but - Cozemel is off the East coast of Mexico close to the Yucatan Channel in the Northwest corner of the Caribbean, while LA is close to the Pacific Ocean and the Western side of Mexico. I suggest that you scale back your dreams to be closer to reality.
All advice must have the word "depends" included in the answer.
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Old 07-04-2010, 22:16   #9
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wreckoning, you have worthy aspirations, but as many people would tell you, years away from the reality of doing this.
The boat add you refrenced your OP with, is misleading. He makes it sound like it is easy. It is not. A 28 foot sailboat is like living in a large closet. I th ink it said something like 8 gal water tankage. Pet friendly!. that is so laughable. And to live aboard something that small, in BC? I would be ready to blow my brains out by the middle of the first winter aboard.
I stongly encourage to not do this. If you are really serious about doing something like this, read a ton of books, take a sailing liveaboard class, and do some serious thinking before hand. Its not that it hasn't been done, couldn't be done or shouldn't be done, its just that you are starting out without the knowledge and expirence to do it. Beware.
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Old 07-04-2010, 22:17   #10
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Now that you've had some reality check and while saying I agree whole heartly with Bash about buying a boat to save rent, if yoiu would like to live aboard and sail I would suggest go check that boat out. It's a good price for the slip, a cheap boat and you will have help from the vendor it sounds like and not be far form Vancouver. A 27 foot sailboat from the point of view of live aboard will not be a good choice unless you actually want to sail. It's not that spacious. So go hang out on the boat and see what it feels like. Spend all day aboard. Ask them to take you sailing. It's the only way to know.
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Old 07-04-2010, 22:38   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigwhyte
this is a list of off shore sail boat you could start with . Mahina Expedition - Offshore Cruising Instruction
>this is a boat i looked at last week it could do what your asking however the deck need http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/va...680847794.html work it at the vancouver yatch club
Hey thanks a lot! I will keep that boat in mind. Tho both that boat and the one in the ad I posted, "Bayliner Buccaneer 277 Sloop", are not on that list ... is that because they are not common models?

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipmac
Age is not necessarily bad, again it comes back to quality and also condition.
Ok. With a lot of things, buying something 30-50 yrs old is going to be more trouble than it's worth unless you stumbled across something immaculately kept, or more likely, you've such a specialized knowledge that you are comfortable dealing with the fairly predictable problems that arise. If boats keep for 30 yrs with normal maintenance, then kewl.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipmac
Let me put it this way. How would you answer if I asked you what car I should buy to drive from BC to LA? Well it would depend. Do I want to take my time, live in comfort, take everything I own and four friends with me? Get a van or motorhome. Do I want to get there as fast as possible and go by myself, but have a limited budget? Get a Toyota.
Ok.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash
write to discourage your plan to own a boat.

As a previous post mentioned, different boats are designed for different functions. Some boats want to race, others want to cruise, others work for a living. Arguably, boats--at least true boats--are not designed to become floating condos.

One thing nonboaters never seem to understand is that boats have souls. Really. And when a nonboater purchases a boat without ever intending to take it to sea, the boat withers.
This probably isn't a fair statement, considering I said I've ridden solo by motorcycle across a country that is roughly 3500 miles wide. On a bike which is seriously not meant for it.

When I said it's unnecessary for me to go anywhere, I mean, I don't have any specific destinations that I need to be at that I'm not happy taking a plane or whatever to; and if $20k isn't enough to buy a boat that can't get over a few waves without capsizing, then yeah, I might take one anyways just for the cheap rent, but if it's capable of going out, it will. I asked about going to Cancun, people in this thread are already telling me to scale it down a notch, and you're really going to tell me my future boat is going to be traumatized from lack of use?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baracy
Your comparison is in the ball park. However I'd suggest a better comparison would be to compare a loaded 50cc scooter with a loaded 27' production fibreglass. In both cases you'd be lucky to complete the trip. With one you can get off and walk...
Ok.

Quote:
You're trying to combine 3 different purposes in one boat. A boat that could be live aboardable in Vancouver (gets real cold, right?) is going to be expensive, and in most cases, unsuitable for traveling the west coast, which has a reputation for bad weather, long distances and few safe harbours. Living aboard in LA sounds expensive and inconvenient, even before you buy the boat. And the sort of boat that suits living aboard is, again, not likely to be suitable for cruising down to Mexico and back. The sort of boat that's good to learn on is not likely to be good for living aboard or for cruising.
I don't know what liveaboards consider cold, but I read about some Canadians living in some ontario marinas, and Vancouver isn't near as cold as that. Vancouver in winter is around 2 ºC/36 ºF, and if that's so cold that it requires a special kind of boat that's going to compromise me in another area, I can just make sure to be in LA during that time (flying there, not living aboard there ).

So if getting along from the cold wasn't a consideration, is a live-aboard boat still unsuitable for the west coast? And if it is, then what is it people do on these live aboard boats? Just go out a little bit and come back? What are they doin out there? Fishin? Sunbathin? Battling pirates?

Quote:
Not to mention that cruising is an inherently slow process. You won't find many mentions of fast cruising, mostly because those who try it rapidly find how dangerous and unpleasant it is.
Ok, not in a hurry. Was just wondering how long it takes. Seems to take awhile. Ha.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John A
I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm, but - Cozemel is off the East coast of Mexico close to the Yucatan Channel in the Northwest corner of the Caribbean, while LA is close to the Pacific Ocean and the Western side of Mexico. I suggest that you scale back your dreams to be closer to reality.
I know where it is. I thought people sailed around the world in these things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobfnbq
The boat add you refrenced your OP with, is misleading. He makes it sound like it is easy. It is not. A 28 foot sailboat is like living in a large closet. I th ink it said something like 8 gal water tankage. Pet friendly!. that is so laughable. And to live aboard something that small, in BC? I would be ready to blow my brains out by the middle of the first winter aboard.

I stongly encourage to not do this.
As I said above, I have a place in LA, I don't need to be in Vancouver in the winter if it's really that bad.

I don't think the space issue is a concern to me. Things that would be a concern: if I needed someone else on the boat to navigate it; if it's unsafe; if it's going to require becoming a marine mechanic to operate/live on; if there is something about the boat that it is not suitable for a beginner (with some lessons...) to operate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hummingway
if yoiu would like to live aboard and sail I would suggest go check that boat out. It's a good price for the slip, a cheap boat and you will have help from the vendor it sounds like and not be far form Vancouver. A 27 foot sailboat from the point of view of live aboard will not be a good choice unless you actually want to sail. It's not that spacious. So go hang out on the boat and see what it feels like. Spend all day aboard. Ask them to take you sailing. It's the only way to know.
Ok, I will email him. Thanks.
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Old 07-04-2010, 23:06   #12
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wreckoning as has been said boats have specific purposes. some boats make great liveaboards some are great day sailors etc... but that being said any boat can be a liveaboard if you have the right mindset for it. i liveaboard a 27ft catalina on van island and yes at times winter months can be a little cold little cramped but i love it. this winter has been very mild especially compared to last winter good ventilation and a good heater go along way to making your winter months bearable. so if all you want is something to live on and ease the pain of monthly rent then i say go for it try it out and in the end if you dont like it then you can always sell the boat and try something different.
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Old 07-04-2010, 23:09   #13
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OK, if you just want to live aboard then try these on for size.
Remember, a boat is not a house. It takes a lot of maintaince (read MONEY) to keep on afloat. But might be cheaper than renting a apartment.
Can you get a slip in a marina there ?

1987 Custom P/H Ketch Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

here is the same boat different broker

1987 Custom Pilothouse Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

1978 Hunter Sloop Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com=

1983 Windward Sloop Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com=

1970 Challenger Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com=

Here are some boats to look at.
The custom pilothouse looks good.
For liveabord, you have to think of comfort. So large water tanks, decent sized holding tanks. propane stove and oven, propane or diesel heater. adequate head and bunk room.
I used to live in Seattle so I know the weather up there. You need protection from the elements, so a pilot house type boat is ideal.
This would be a floating home. After a while you could go sailing and learn, but do not even try to go down the pacific coast without a few years of expirence behind you.
But the san juans, and north inside passage, you could have some good times learning in the summer months.
But having a slip available is essential. If no slips available, forget about it. Unless you go for a boat like your first post pointed to, and that would be a weekend boat at best. IMO.
Good luck.
Bob
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Old 07-04-2010, 23:40   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelmrc
i liveaboard a 27ft catalina on van island and yes at times winter months can be a little cold little cramped but i love it. this winter has been very mild especially compared to last winter good ventilation and a good heater go along way to making your winter months bearable. so if all you want is something to live on and ease the pain of monthly rent then i say go for it try it out and in the end if you dont like it then you can always sell the boat and try something different.
Hey thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobfnbw
Remember, a boat is not a house. It takes a lot of maintaince (read MONEY) to keep on afloat. But might be cheaper than renting a apartment.
Well, rent's like $1500/mo, marina is $400/mo + boat maintenance, plus the marina is in a better location for me citywise than any apartment I can seem to find, so...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobfnbw
OK, if you just want to live aboard then try these on for size.
Hey thanks so much! I didn't even know where to look for boats or much of what I was looking for! Unfortunately I don't know anyone who boats at all so there isn't anyone I can ask except a bunch of strangers shakin their heads on this forum hehehe

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobfnbw
For liveabord, you have to think of comfort. So large water tanks, decent sized holding tanks. propane stove and oven, propane or diesel heater. adequate head and bunk room.
Ok. A stove is nice, but I don't absolutely need one, and I never use an oven (just in case I can get a stove without an oven to save space, heh). Also I am pretty short, so if the head room was low it would be easier on me than most people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobfnbw
The custom pilothouse looks good.
It does look good! Really good! Not that I would know haha. One's $16k and the other one's $25k for the same year model. Is that likely to mean that one of the boats is in better condition (because from pictures alone the cheaper one looks better to me)?

They're in WA. Is there some special hassle with "importing" a boat to Canada, ie the hassle that is implied with bringing in a US registered automobile? Would I go see it first before I buy it?

Quote:
After a while you could go sailing and learn, but do not even try to go down the pacific coast without a few years of expirence behind you. But the san juans, and north inside passage, you could have some good times learning in the summer months.
Ok, cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobfnbw
But having a slip available is essential. If no slips available, forget about it. Unless you go for a boat like your first post pointed to, and that would be a weekend boat at best. IMO.
Ok. I will call the marinas tomorrow and inquire about slips.
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Old 08-04-2010, 00:00   #15
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Ahoy, I have lived aboard a 25 foot Farr 7.27m racer/cruiser, loved it, but in western australia, very moderate climate, just coastal cruising, very well set up boat. I am small so being cramped didn't worry me, if you want to stand, just up go outside!
But I spent a lot of time and money on her before I went coastal cruising and lived aboard.
Would never have considered going to sea from Vancouver to LA/Mexico in her, a serious bit of coast there as I drove up it last year. The initial cost of a second hand boat is just the start, normally look at the same amount again, at least, before you go extended cruising. You might think you can do it "on the cheap", but wait until you are 300n-miles offshore in 40 knot winds , at night and no safe landfall for 3 days!!? You will want the best there is?
Keep asking questions mate, don't give up, it will happen in time?
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