Liveaboard Adventurer, Needs Sage Wisdom

[Hudson Force]

Originally Posted by DaveOnCudjoe

T,
I live in Key West and work in construction. I see young people from all over the world pass through on the adventure of life. It seems that Americans are the only ones who don't travel the world in their youth...................

Wait! Won't it be unlikely to see the American youth traveling the world when your view is from within America?

[Perepetia]

Haha! Excellent catch CaptForce.

Still, the point is taken. I've got some friends who are travelling, I've got many more who aren't.

I hear all the time 'well, the economy's bad, so its a good time to go to grad school.'
That may be true but I'm betting the economy will be bad for long enough that I can travel and go to grad school before things turn around.

Thanks all for the encouragement. I liked the referral to the specific cruising guide, I'll pick that up soon.

Anybody have suggestions on good (cheap, fun) places to re-provision while heading south toward S.A.?

Do folks abandon their boats while they go ashore or is that asking to be robbed?

[garymccrank]

T, it's a great idea to do what you are dreaming of doing; and yes, it's all possible. Fla is a great place to get a deal on a seaworthy - or potentially seaworthy - boat for well under 10k. Keep everything simple, do the work yourself, don't get caught up fussing little details - that will keep you in the boatyard forever and exhaust your cruising kitty.
28 -31 ft is good but think of one or two crew members and be prepared to solo when and if neccesary.
As for Cuba; I lived and had a business there - sea kayaking and bike touring - for 5 years. I am Canadian and my sailboat - a Tanzer 28 - is Canadian registered so I was treated differently. I sailed between Cuba and Florida, usually Marathon, 14 times and always cleared in at Key West.
Technically the laws governing any travel between the USA and Cuba are the same for all nationalities but are in practice applied differntly, ie. I was allowed free and unfetterd travel both ways.
The rules for US citizens and vessels is a little different and you can find all the info re the laws and regs elsewhere but here is the practical reality for you; go, and don't worry about it. You are technically required to have permission from USCG to transit the "security zone" between USA and Cuba but this is rarely if ever enforced.
If you return directly to the USA from Cuba I recommend that you clear in normally. In the unlikely event that you are assessed a fine - usually very small - simply refuse to admit any guilt and the matter will - eventually - be dropped. This has been the case for all the US sailors I know who have sailed between the two.
Bottom line; go - you want to see Cuba now, it's not the evil empire that GW claimed, and you will be treated extremely well.
Just do it!

[Adelie]

Outfitting the boat for offshore is going to take a significant fraction of the purchase price of the boat, 33-50%.


You really want at least 1 good sea-berth in the main cabin for each off-watch person plus a place to sit for the on-watch that won't disturb sleepers. Best would be a main cabin berth for everyone. Quarter berths are very good, settees (longitudinal benches) you have to convert every night are good, a dinette (transverse benches) would probably be mediocre given the amount of conversion required but depends on the particular boat. The V-berth will be unusable offshore. A pilot berth would be excellent and aft cabin berths would be good (to much motion to be very good) but you are not likely to find either of these in the size boat you can afford.

Among the big things to check before buying is that none of the bulkheads are rotted out. Some delamination of the deck core can be repaired. Once you have the boat you will want to consider glassing over the hull-deck joint. Also you may want to replace the rigging. Sta-loc or Norseman terminals are the quickest and best way to do the work and preserve resale value. Cheaper is to learn to splice eyes and do it yourself using 7x7 wire. See Brion Toss's "The Rigger's apprentice".

Specific to most Cal boats you would want to make sure the steel beam under the compression post has not rusted thru. This beam may be buried under the liner so checking may be difficult. The beam is one more thing to check on Cal's but they do a better job of supporting the mast. See how one owner replaced the beam at Wilkie's Sailboat Page

I would specifically recommend a CAL 34for your proposed jaunt if you can find one within budget. One, possibly 2 have been round the world, they have .

Consider adding built-in water tanks, more storage for the volume occupied and in the event of a holing thru the hull into the tank, the boat doesn't try to sink, the tank already had water in it, you just can't drink it now. See Atomvoyages link below.

Consider adding a removable inner forestay for a staysail. It gives more sail area reaching in light conditions, better balance in heavy conditions since staysail is not as far foreward as jib, the extra rigging involved gives the whole mast better and redundant support.

You will need 3 anchors:
A) main is a 25-35# plow/CQR/Delta or Claw/Bruce on 100-150' 1/4"-5/16” chain & 200-300' 9/16"-1/2” nylon 3-strand rope with bow roller and chain pawl (chain pawl allows you to go without a windlass),
B) backup is a 15-18# Danforth type anchor on 30' chain and 250-350' of rope and an oversized cleat; and
C) stern/kedge anchor is a 10# plow, claw or Danforth on 15' of 3/16" chain and 150-200' 7/16" rope.
D) If you are feeling flush get a 40-50# fisherman/Herreschoff/Luke with same rode as B) for difficult rock and kelp situations.
Put 2 or 3 oversized cleats on the bow, and 1 on each corner of the stern.


A lot of the anchor stuff you might be able to pick up at swap meets if you attend early and stay late. This will save a lot. Some of the new anchors are getting better reps than the Bruce or CQR but have not hit the 2nd hand market much yet and are still expensive by comparison when they do.

If you could find a deal, I would upsize the main anchor to 35#. Yeah it’s heavy, but it’s a storm sized anchor for boat this size.

You will need a small dinghy. Buying an inflatable is the current general answer but it will cost you, even second hand. A hard dinghy with oars may be a more durable and economical answer if you have a place to build one yourself. There are various plans available for nesting dinghy's that take up a lot less deck space.

You will need to build a self-steering windvane. There is a recent book that includes plans or checkout
In Memoriam Walt Murray
or
http://www.windautopilot.de/_de/7_dy...rray_Pages.zip

Alternatively acquire and make the stuff needed for sheet to tiller steering. Start practicing as soon as whatever boat you get is in sailable condition. Here are 2 links:

Foolish Muse, Sheet-to-Tiller Steering video
Foolish Muse Singlehanding Tips

You may want to seal some of the storage compartments in the boat using waterproof hatches for access. This will provide floatation in the case of holing. This is discussed at
Atom Voyages | Sailing and Boat Project* Articles by James Baldwin

Make sure you have a drifter, being able to continue sailing in light air really saves on fuel. If the main is in good shape all's it may need is a 3rd reef. Decent sails can be had from used sail dealers. With 4 on board a spinnaker would be nice if it came with the boat, but I would get a drifter and pole definitely then see if there was money for the spinnaker just before departing.

Get an engine manual for whatever motor the boat has, gas, diesel or outboard. If a boat you are looking at has a gas inboard that is not a reason for significant worry, consider that while they aren't as safe as diesel, they are not dangerous per se. If anyone wants to dispute this, ask them if they have propane on board for their stove. Using the bilge blower and sniffing prior to starting should alleviate potential issues. On the plus side the Atomic 4 will help bring your purchase price down significantly compared to a diesel, and gas engines don't mind running at lower RPM's as much, and slower motoring is way better for fuel economy. Motoring at 4-4.5kt will about double your fuel mileage compared to motoring at hull speed of 6-6.5kt.

You will need a solar panel or 2, preferably on a good mount, see above Atomvoyages for one idea. 2 or 3 new group 27 flooded batteries or a pair or 2 of new 6v golf cart batteries from a 2nd tier supplier would probably be adequate if usage is limited. Evans Starzinger has interesting things to say about batteries at Systems Over even the medium term solar is cheaper than running the engine regularly to recharge the batteries.

To conserve battery power you want fluorescent or LED light fixtures in the cabin, 1 or 2 in main cabin & 1 in v-berth. Incandescents can remain in head and berths. You will want a single bulb Tricolor fixture at the masthead for sailing, there is not yet a cheap LED tricolor that I have found. Bebi Electronics has a description about converting an AquaSignal fixture. At anchor an LED fixture should go with the anchor ball. Bebi Electronics - Owl is one source that I have heard decent things about. When motoring there will be surplus power so the existing incandescent bulbs in the bow and stern lights are fine, even an outboard is likely to have an alternator.
Limiting the amount of electronics on the boat will help with battery conservation, deptho (make a backup lead line), speedo/log, simple mounted GPS (no chart plotter with color screen needing be backlit all the time), VHF, shortwave, and maybe a stereo/CD player are about all you need. You will want a fan or 2 and if you locate them right they can do double duty blowing both over berths and thru the social areas of the main cabin. If you really need a computer, get one of the netbooks, they are optimized for low power draw to stretch their batteries as far as possible.

Convert the Icebox to shelves or drawers for storage. Same with the hanging locker across from head.

In no particular order read:
John Vigor's - The Seaworthy Offshore Sailboat (There is a section in back about beefing up a Catalina 27 for offshore.
Don Casey's - This Old Boat and Boat Maintenance Manual (has a section on how to do your own pre-survey so you can eliminate obvious and no so obvious duds before paying a surveyor)
Lin & Larry Pardey Books - SelfSufficient Sailor, CapableCruiser and CostConsciousCruiser.
Annie Hill's - Voyaging on a Small income
Beth Leonard's - Voyager's Handbook
Nigel Calder’s - Cruising Handbook.

[leon.opit]

On our voyages we have many younger cruisers who have set out on or about the same kind of money. We ourselves live aboard 33ft footer and its plenty big enough for the two of us.
What we have learned is, use your judgement and the go do.
Best of luck and calm seas.

[Adelie]

Another boat alternative is a Cal 33.
There is one on the DE for sale at $9k.
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...g_id=1564&url=

The boat is not as well laid out for 2 or 3 crew as the Cal 34, but for 4 crew it would have the advantage.

[Perepetia]

Adelie- Wow! Thanks so much for this extensive reply! Just the sort of details I'm hoping to get sorted out. Really appreciate the boat, equipment and book recommendations.

I definitely want to have some solar panels and/or a wind vane set up. Looking to use as little fuel and battery power as possible.

One question in regard to battery power: I'm thinking the cheapest and safest nav setup would be a laptop computer running an open-source chart program with a usb gps reciever. I'll have a 76csx and paper charts as backup. Will running my main nav system through a computer be a battery hog? Hopefully I'll just be using it below to plot a route and then only checking in periodically, so it won't be full sun-battling brightness all the time. Thoughts?

I do like the layout on the Cal's, but if 9k is a typical asking price I'll need to go down about 50% from there.

Two safety questions for folks:
- Do people really spend big money for a life raft?
- What should I spend on a reliable VHF? Do I need a handheld backup?

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Perepetia

Adelie- Wow! Thanks so much for this extensive reply! Just the sort of details I'm hoping to get sorted out. Really appreciate the boat, equipment and book recommendations.

I definitely want to have some solar panels and/or a wind vane set up. Looking to use as little fuel and battery power as possible.
I assume you mean wind mill or wind turbine for power generation (a windvane is generally understood to be a mechanical self-steering device which would be preferable in your case due to budget constraints.) My understanding is that for the Caribbean solar is generally more than adequate and wind gen's have noise and safety issues that solar doesn't.

One question in regard to battery power: I'm thinking the cheapest and safest nav setup would be a laptop computer running an open-source chart program with a usb gps reciever.
The relative reliability and safety of depending on chartplotters/computer nav is a very contentious topic on this forum. For budget reasons I would skip the computer nav until the last minute and pick them up if you have the spare cash just before leaving. If you have the netbook already and the GPS card then OpenCPN is the free nav tool I know of and it is regularly discussed on this forum with the developer. Free charts are available from the US gov't for US waters. I don't know about beyond the US.

If you have a regular lap top and not a netbook be prepared to go paper, laptops have not been optimized for minimum power draw, they may have the same battery life but that likely means they just have a larger battery which still needs more power to recharge. Running a regular laptop 24/7 likely will have a major impact on your charging system, you may need to double your battery bank size, and double the number of solar panels you have, call it $500 or more in added expense. Even the netbook may be a strain on your electrical system depending on particulars and usage.

For paper charting you want:
-Mechanical pencils and leads
-parallel rules
-Dividers
-Drawing compass - optional
-ship's magnetic compass
Get the book Piloting & Dead Reckoning by Shufeldt et al. An old edition is just fine, the newer editions just talk about the newer electronic nav systems and you are getting it for the paper nav stuff that hasn't changed appreciably.

The nav setup I would start with would be
Paper charts and chart books,
items listed above
HH GPS described below,
lead line for checking depth
barometer

Upgrades in order of preference would be:
depthsounder
speedometer/log
Fixed mount GPS or computer system described above depending on electrical capacity

Getting a depthsounder would be even more important than having a VHF.



I'll have a 76csx and paper charts as backup.
Unless you already have the 76csx unit, the compass and altimeter functions are of minimal value and a cheaper unit would be a better choice. (I got a model like that for hiking and it didn't work well.That said the baro feature would be good for single station wx forecasting. A simple baro and separate GPS would probably be cheaper and would be better from a reliability standpoint, failure of one does not defeat both tools. Since the HH GPS is for backup, I would skip the mapping function and try to find a model with a black and white screen, least cost and least batter draw.


Will running my main nav system through a computer be a battery hog? Hopefully I'll just be using it below to plot a route and then only checking in periodically, so it won't be full sun-battling brightness all the time. Thoughts?
See above discussion about laptops vs netbooks. I have no hard info at this time about netbook power draw. I have a power meter, if I remember I'll hook up my netbook to it.

I do like the layout on the Cal's, but if 9k is a typical asking price I'll need to go down about 50% from there.
No, that's the low end for that size Cal. If you really are going to have 3 crew plus yourself, even that will be a little tight for the long haul but you have to deal with budget too. If 3 crew is just an occasional number then you should be able to make do with a smaller boat. How many do you have committed for the whole thing, and how many will just show up for a week or 3 at a time? You really need to get a handle on your crew situation, it has a big impact on boat choice and the costs that go with that.

Two safety questions for folks:
- Do people really spend big money for a life raft?
Some do some don't. Recent poll on CF indicated liferaft carriage was running about 2 to 1, indicating no carriage is a minority but a very large minority. Here is a link to some cruisers who chose not to: Seamanship.
- What should I spend on a reliable VHF? Do I need a handheld backup?
$100-150 plus coax and antenna. If your budget constraints really are hitting you, I would get a handheld in the $60-80 range and hook it up to the ship's antenna to get the better range. (make sure the handheld's antenna can be removed and it has a connector that works or that you can find an adapter for. Preferable would be the fixed mount for the added power and range. Get an extra handheld at the last minute before leaving when you know you have spare cash.

My big post was a rehash of something I did for someone else in a similar situation.

[blgklr]

To the OP, if you really want a total of 4 crew. I would start a search now for 3 likeminded people and form a co-op. Say you each put 6000 towards the hardware, that gives you 24,000 to buy and outfit a boat. You should easily find something around 34 feet in Florida on that budget. Now if you each have 4000 cash you all have 16,000 to finance your adventure. So good luck in finding a few likeminded and agreeable people and best of luck in the voyage.

[Perepetia]

blgklr-
I completely agree with your advice, in fact, that's been my plan. I've had lots of like-minded friends get excited about the idea, but putting money where mouth is is a different story.
I just wanted to get a sense of what would still be possible without fully sharing costs with the crew.
What I imagine happening is that I'll throw down on the boat, financially and in terms of responsibility and that I'll have friends cruise with me for weeks to months, contributing costs while they're aboard.
In the end maybe I'll be able to sell the boat, in better shape than when I got it, and recoup some costs?
Thanks for your input.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Perepetia

blgklr-
I completely agree with your advice, in fact, that's been my plan. I've had lots of like-minded friends get excited about the idea, but putting money where mouth is is a different story.
I just wanted to get a sense of what would still be possible without fully sharing costs with the crew.
What I imagine happening is that I'll throw down on the boat, financially and in terms of responsibility and that I'll have friends cruise with me for weeks to months, contributing costs while they're aboard.
In the end maybe I'll be able to sell the boat, in better shape than when I got it, and recoup some costs?
Thanks for your input.

Yup.... that's likely gonna be the scenario...

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Perepetia

blgklr-
I completely agree with your advice, in fact, that's been my plan. I've had lots of like-minded friends get excited about the idea, but putting money where mouth is is a different story.
I just wanted to get a sense of what would still be possible without fully sharing costs with the crew.
What I imagine happening is that I'll throw down on the boat, financially and in terms of responsibility and that I'll have friends cruise with me for weeks to months, contributing costs while they're aboard.
In the end maybe I'll be able to sell the boat, in better shape than when I got it, and recoup some costs?
Thanks for your input.

It is a buyer's market right now and looks to remain so for a while. Expect to recoup your purchase price, maybe a bit more with whatever goodies you put on the boat, but you will make a net loss after accounting for all your durable goods purchases.
A plenty old boat boat (60's-70's) is probably holding it's value or appreciating very slightly right now.
Any electronics you purchase are going to depreciate instantly and never regain any value, best value is to get a boat with serviceable if obsolete electronics aboard. Arrange you expectations so that if any of them break you just do without (lights, HH-GPS and deptho excepted.)
Any sails on-board or bought by you will be more used by the time you want to sell them.

[Bash]

Realize that there are people on this forum who will scream "Go for it!" if you propose to depart for Cuba in a used canoe even if you don't have money for a spare paddle.

You might want to reflect on what it means to serve as skipper on a boat where you've taken on responsibility for the lives of three crew. The skipper on any offshore voyage should be a fair hand at navigation, piloting, and the management of the vessel. From the questions you're currently asking, it sounds as if you've got a great deal to learn before you're ready to take on this responsibility. The best advice I can give you is to take a year apprenticing yourself as crew to someone who knows his/her way around a boat and the ocean. Learn everything you can about life at sea before you even think about purchasing your own vessel. In other words, start by accumulating knowledge, not possessions.

Your current venture reads like a bad headline: "Four Novices Set Sail for Cuba on Overcrowded Boat without Liferaft." Is that really how you want the story to read?

A four-man, offshore life raft is going to cost you about $3,500. If you're not ready to pop for that, you're really not ready to take responsibility for the lives of four people on an offshore voyage. However, even if you've only got $10,000 in your pocket, you've got more than enough money to cruise the world for a few years crewing for others.

[feelsgood]

It can definatly be done and I can tell you from experience life is an adventure so live it because life without risk is death on legs. Good luck just be carefull of who you take with you

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Perepetia

I would like to make it from Florida to Guyana, S.A. by hurricane season.

You have gotten all sorts of good responses to your other questions, but no-one yet has commented on this aspect. Is there a particular reason for that goal?

It's a bitch to get from the eastern Caribbean to Guyana. Below is a snip from the pilot chart - you have both the wind (blue arrows) AND (more importantly) a quite strong current (green arrows) against you. It can be done, as most things can, but it is a bitch and a long slow slog. Its easier to get there from the Canaries or Cape Verdes.