Licensing a vessel versus registering it

[roland stockham]

Originally Posted by lookinggoodrock

I said my boat IS registered in Canada, I just never changed the registration to my name. I am protected therefore as it is still flagged as Canadian vessel. All I say is the law states that I do not have to re register the boat in my name. I have visited ten countries without any problem. I just don't like the idea of giving the Canadian government any more money than I have to.

If you bought a house or a car would you be happy to leave it registered in the previous owners name? Do you carry a letter of authorization from the registered owner allowing you to move there boat. It is by the way still their boat not yours until you register it under your name, registration is your title document.
Your registration is not valid because the declare vessel owner is not correct. The previouse owner will also almost cirtainly informed the government that they no longer own the vessel because that releases them from liability (collision, pollution etc) so they already know half of it
I can foresee a bad end to this and the longer you leave it the more hassle it may cause.

[mitiempo]

Originally Posted by roland stockham

I registered in Victoria in person and found the staff very helpful, if you are anywhere near an office suggest a personal visit if having problems. Does take a while but you only have to do it once, changes and renewals are done via email.

They were very helpful over the years (I have owned 3 registered boats) but the Victoria office - and I guess the others - are now closed. Phone calls to Ottawa are the norm now.

Many have entered Mexico and other countries with provincial licensing or state licensing if from the US without difficulty. No arrests or boat seizures for this reason, at least in Mexico.

I would not have a boat that was not country registered if going foreign though - the advantages including proof of ownership are worth having.

[mitiempo]

Originally Posted by whalin

The Customs Officers kept asking me for the boat's registration number. I said it didn't have one, because it is Registered not Licensed. I worked for years with FedEx and know never to argue with customs. So I asked them to give me a minute and I retired my registry documentation. I found a number on it called the "Official Number", gave that to them, and they were happy.

Whalin

The registration number should be displayed below decks in a manner that makes it's removal difficult. This is a legal part of registering a boat in Canada.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by lookinggoodrock

I said my boat IS registered in Canada, I just never changed the registration to my name. I am protected therefore as it is still flagged as Canadian vessel. All I say is the law states that I do not have to re register the boat in my name. I have visited ten countries without any problem. I just don't like the idea of giving the Canadian government any more money than I have to.

Your game! Is your house in someone else's name as well?

(I'm Australian, so I don't know how that works there).

[jb cruzan]

Originally Posted by whalin

Another thing....when registering you can divide the ownership up by 64ths. I split mine 4 ways, so that my kids can inherit the boat at no cost.

Maybe in Canada. In the US not quite that simple. You can gift a certain amount per year, and there is also a inheritance exemption, but simply having their name on something with no documentation would likely be construed as a gift in the US.

[roland stockham]

I am amazed that enforcement is so lax here. But I still consider the guy a benefit/tax cheat, the rest of us pay extra to cover it. Makes no difference to me whether it is fraudulent EI claims, black economy, fiddling your expenses. Respect for what is right should be what governs our decisions not fear of getting caught.

[jmschmidt]

Lot of mixed terminology here which I'm sure has produced a lot of confusion. In the US we have what is called a "Document Vessel of the United States" or a "US Flag Vessel" for which the US Coast Guard issues an "Official Number". These numbers (not to be confused with the manufacture's hull number) must be embossed into the hull along with the documented tonnage which is not the same as the displacement or actual tonnage . If you buy an already US documented vessel the change of ownership is simple and cheap. If you by an undocumented vessel and want to document it the process is more complicated and a little more expensive assuming you have access to all the required records, paperwork etc. Do not draft your own bill of sale, even or especially when buying a foreign vessel, use only Coast Guard Form 1340 . If you buy a foreign vessel which is documented, registered, stolen or whatever the foreign country calls it, the 'deflaging" and "reflaging" to US (as it is known) is more complicate and a little more expensive, again assuming your paperwork is in order. Even in this case I've done them for about $400.

Individual states in the US have state "registration" requirements. These have nothing to do with documentation and are generally not accepted in foreign waters. (I know some of you fake this' just let me know which foreign jail you're in and I'll come visit.) It appears from what I read here that "registration" in Canada is what the US would call "documentation" and it seems that "licensing" in Canada is what the US calls state "registration". Some states (usually the ones that have personal property taxes that apply to boats) require that even documented vessels be state registered as well. Gee I wonder why?

Since the US Coast Guard maintains chain-of-title records on all US documented vessels only a document vessel is eligible to be used as collateral for a "preferred ship mortgage" which affords a lender a superior claim on the vessel in case of default. Usually more attractive financing is available because of this security. Most small boat dealers and their finance companies don't have a clue about this when they finance an 18" runabout. They are unsecured creditors just like the people who sold the defaulting boat owner his washing machine.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by jmschmidt

Lot of mixed terminology here which I'm sure has produced a lot of confusion. In the US we have what is called a "Document Vessel of the United States" or a "US Flag Vessel" for which the US Coast Guard issues an "Official Number". These numbers (not to be confused with the manufacture's hull number) must be embossed into the hull along with the documented tonnage which is not the same as the displacement or actual tonnage . If you buy an already US documented vessel the change of ownership is simple and cheap. If you by an undocumented vessel and want to document it the process is more complicated and a little more expensive assuming you have access to all the required records, paperwork etc. Do not draft your own bill of sale, even or especially when buying a foreign vessel, use only Coast Guard Form 1340 . If you buy a foreign vessel which is documented, registered, stolen or whatever the foreign country calls it, the 'deflaging" and "reflaging" to US (as it is known) is more complicate and a little more expensive, again assuming your paperwork is in order. Even in this case I've done them for about $400.

Individual states in the US have state "registration" requirements. These have nothing to do with documentation and are generally not accepted in foreign waters. (I know some of you fake this' just let me know which foreign jail you're in and I'll come visit.) It appears from what I read here that "registration" in Canada is what the US would call "documentation" and it seems that "licensing" in Canada is what the US calls state "registration". Some states (usually the ones that have personal property taxes that apply to boats) require that even documented vessels be state registered as well. Gee I wonder why?

Since the US Coast Guard maintains chain-of-title records on all US documented vessels only a document vessel is eligible to be used as collateral for a "preferred ship mortgage" which affords a lender a superior claim on the vessel in case of default. Usually more attractive financing is available because of this security. Most small boat dealers and their finance companies don't have a clue about this when they finance an 18" runabout. They are unsecured creditors just like the people who sold the defaulting boat owner his washing machine.

As you have described this is pretty much the same as it is in Australia. Over hear all vessels over a certain size engine have to be 'state registered' (licenses here are basically for people) but you can also op for 'ships registration' which is federal. To leave Australia you have to be 'ship registered' And the Mortgage situation is the same as you described too.

[Prairie Chicken]

jmschmidt, what you describe sounds to be the same as our Canadian process. Different terminology, same result. Which is also about the same as the UK system with 'blue book' registry & SSR, and sounds to reflect AUS as well.

Registering the boat costs more and I believe there is a recurring fee every 3 years.

There is no recurring fee. There is a requirement every three years to confirm the owner's details (address, etc.) are correct on the C of R or it is suspended & ultimately cancelled.

Which also speaks to lookinggoodrock's belief his boat his still registered in Canada. It is not. Change of ownership would have negated the C of R. Check your vessel's name on the Vessel Registration Query System link someone else posted above.

I went thru the registration of our new boat last fall. It took time, $250 I think it was, expertise to calculate tonnage measure, and very careful reading of the documents, but I had the C of R in hand in less than 3 months. The majority of that time was my having to wait for a translation from the original bill of sale. The TC folks were pleasant & helpful.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by Prairie Chicken

jmschmidt, what you describe sounds to be the same as our Canadian process. Different terminology, same result. Which is also about the same as the UK system with 'blue book' registry & SSR, and sounds to reflect AUS as well.

There is no recurring fee. There is a requirement every three years to confirm the owner's details (address, etc.) are correct on the C of R or it is suspended & ultimately cancelled.

Which also speaks to lookinggoodrock's belief his boat his still registered in Canada. It is not. Change of ownership would have negated the C of R. Check your vessel's name on the Vessel Registration Query System link someone else posted above.

I went thru the registration of our new boat last fall. It took time, $250 I think it was, expertise to calculate tonnage measure, and very careful reading of the documents, but I had the C of R in hand in less than 3 months. The majority of that time was my having to wait for a translation from the original bill of sale. The TC folks were pleasant & helpful.

Are you require to have the individual 'state' registration or license over there as well?

[Prairie Chicken]

Do you mean both the (federal) registration &/or (provincial) licensing? If so, no. It's either/or.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by Prairie Chicken

Do you mean both the (federal) registration &/or (provincial) licensing? If so, no. It's either/or.

Yes, that's right. You have 'provinces' I guess to our 'states'

Here in Australia we must have 'provinces' registration, but we don't have to have the Federal registration.

Only commercial vessels that have Federal registration can under the federal rules dispense with 'state' or province registration.

[Prairie Chicken]

I should clarify that commercial regs are quite different, and private regs vary by size of vessel. I've no experience with commercial vessels, nor very large or small boats.

I know in aviation there is an international organization (ICAO) that specifies regs, standards, & consistent format for these, if I can put it that way, for all member countries. As aircraft travel frequently from country to country it is important that legislation and standards be relatively consistent. I get the distinct feeling maritime law is the same although I don't know what that organization may have oversight.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by Prairie Chicken

I should clarify that commercial regs are quite different, and private regs vary by size of vessel. I've no experience with commercial vessels, nor very large or small boats.

I know in aviation there is an international organization (ICAO) that specifies regs, standards, & consistent format for these, if I can put it that way, for all member countries. As aircraft travel frequently from country to country it is important that legislation and standards be relatively consistent. I get the distinct feeling maritime law is the same although I don't know what that organization may have oversight.

Over here a registered ship is a ship regardless of whether it's a commercial or recreational vessel, or size.

But when doing state registration, there is either 'recreational registration or commercial registration which is called being 'under survey' for commercial use. Vessels that are under survey are regularly inspected to make sure they comply.

[goboatingnow]

To enter a foreign country a boat is required to hold national registration in the owner country of citizenship. So no choice.

There is a requirement for UN/IMO signatory countries to maintain a register of shipping. There is no requirement that it must be related to citizenry status. ( It often is, but need not be )

Leisure boats can be and are exempted from this requirement if the national state decides so. UK leisure vessels need not be registered and a lively debate took place on YBW ( including opinions from French Customs ) as to whether it was legal or not to simply fly the ensign , but not have actual registration documents

Thats the great thing about " standards" they're so many to choose from !!!