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Old 14-08-2014, 08:28   #61
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Re: How Much Water Will My Liveaboard Family Use?

my habits are more like beni's, err sailorchic's.. conservation.
i seeno reason to overuse a resource we may need badly later.
nothing comes in way of personal hygiene, and that takes very little water.
is nice to be able to run around wasting water----
even on land i didnt leave the tap runnin gfo no reason, which is what washing salt water off a sailing vessel is doing, essentially.
the chronic overuse of resources despite ability to create water to drink from water under boat, is one if the problems with our planet today. have fun washing down a clean boat mid ocean..not many gonna sympathize with that philosophy, sorry.
i sympathize mor eith , err empathize with those of us who take small and efficient showers, as we really dont need to let the water run for half hour to be clean.
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Old 14-08-2014, 08:34   #62
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Re: How Much Water Will My Liveaboard Family Use?

On any crossing you will get rained on, and rained on hard. If the sea's are such that you have salt water over your deck washing them down on passage seems a total wast. There are plenty of stories about the Pacific crossing going tits up with los of engine, generator and battery failure. Using water as if it is a never ending commodity is rife with danger. Clean the boat when you make land treat your water supply as if the next time you try to make water you can't. We have a water maker but still carry 60lt/15 gal in Jerry jugs just in case.

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Old 14-08-2014, 08:42   #63
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Re: How Much Water Will My Liveaboard Family Use?

Wow massive consumption for many.

We use 8 galls / day for a couple including a daily shower. We live like normal people.

We have 240 gallons of water aboard so can go nearly a month. We use an additional 3 gallons per machine clothes wash. We have a filter / recirc system for the washing machine.

We have a 12V Spectra water maker that we run if charging from the genset 2 or 3 times a week.

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Old 14-08-2014, 08:45   #64
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Re: How Much Water Will My Liveaboard Family Use?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
my habits are more like beni's, err sailorchic's.. conservation.
i seeno reason to overuse a resource we may need badly later.
nothing comes in way of personal hygiene, and that takes very little water.
is nice to be able to run around wasting water----
even on land i didnt leave the tap runnin gfo no reason, which is what washing salt water off a sailing vessel is doing, essentially.
the chronic overuse of resources despite ability to create water to drink from water under boat, is one if the problems with our planet today. have fun washing down a clean boat mid ocean..not many gonna sympathize with that philosophy, sorry.
i sympathize mor eith , err empathize with those of us who take small and efficient showers, as we really dont need to let the water run for half hour to be clean.
Zee, it's good to hear from yee.

I think many folks on the conservation side without a water maker really don't understand how they work. Following activation, the water maker needs to be used once or preferably twice per day in order to prevent damage to the unit or the need for costly "pickling." Boats that are equipped with a unit either power them with solar or wind, the engine alternator or a genset. In our case, the genset needs to run 2-3 hours per day in order to charge the batteries and cover our electrical needs. We cook our meals during this time, and run the water maker to create a load for the genset. The water maker produces over 50 gallons during this time period, so.... We got it, so we find ways to use it. Nothing is wasted. The power to run the water maker either comes from solar, the wind, the genset or the alternator if the motor is running.

We are surrounded by billions of gallons of water... Why not use it??

The fishies use it, the whales and dolphins use it... Why not us?? Why is it, when people use a resource... It's a bad thing and wasteful... When other animals use the same resource... That's OK? People... Bad. Animals... Good.

When we or others use solar or byproduct electricity to produce water and then use it.. even in copious amounts... I really don't see how anyone can find fault with this behavior.

Please remember this before criticizing our need to run the generator... If you or anyone else is plugged into shore power or has electricity running into your home... The power is produced by burning something at the power plant. You don't get something for nothing.

Ken
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Old 14-08-2014, 08:46   #65
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Re: How Much Water Will My Liveaboard Family Use?

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Originally Posted by SimonV View Post
On any crossing you will get rained on, and rained on hard. If the sea's are such that you have salt water over your deck washing them down on passage seems a total wast. There are plenty of stories about the Pacific crossing going tits up with los of engine, generator and battery failure. Using water as if it is a never ending commodity is rife with danger. Clean the boat when you make land treat your water supply as if the next time you try to make water you can't. We have a water maker but still carry 60lt/15 gal in Jerry jugs just in case.

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I might add that maintaining a certain level in the boat's water tank as the emergency supply in case the watermaker fails is a dangerous thing. Water tanks can leak, get contaminated with salt water, I saw a situation where a hose came loose and the pressure pump emptied most of the tank before the crew figured out what was happening.

When you are at sea or anywhere that fresh water supplies are not available always have an emergency supply of drinking water separate from your main tank. Depending on the situation I keep 10-20-30 one gallon jugs of water stashed in the bottom of lockers, under the life jackets or any other hard to access, otherwise unused storage spots.
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Old 14-08-2014, 09:10   #66
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Re: How Much Water Will My Liveaboard Family Use?

As we all do Skipmac when crossing oceans
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Old 14-08-2014, 09:24   #67
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Re: How Much Water Will My Liveaboard Family Use?

Ghostchaser,

just a hint which may not have been mentioned before.

make a good choice as to where you draw water for your water maker from. We have a 75 gph unit, and unfortunately it draws the water further aft than the outlet from the washing machine. The genset is capable of handling both, and I would love to run the machine and the watermaker at the same time. Makes for a quieter anchorage...

So one of my projects is to re-route the intake towards the front of the boat. Since we're anchored most of the time that will get me fresh salt water there and the washing machine can spill its guts further aft.

...and I second the remarks that it definitely is not necessary to hose your boat down every two days with fresh water. The squalls will do that for you with about the same frequency...

As to the usage and frequency, at anchor we empty both tanks before refilling. During crossings we empty one and refill it immediately while switching over, so we always have 300 l of reserve...

Oliver
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Old 14-08-2014, 09:26   #68
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Re: How Much Water Will My Liveaboard Family Use?

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Zee, it's good to hear from yee.
I think many folks on the conservation side without a water maker really don't understand how they work. Following activation, the water maker needs to be used once or preferably twice per day in order to prevent damage to the unit or the need for costly "pickling." Boats that are equipped with a unit either power them with solar or wind, the engine alternator or a genset. In our case, the genset needs to run 2-3 hours per day in order to charge the batteries. We cook our meals during this time, and run the water maker to create a load for the genset. The water maker produces over 50 gallons during this time period, so.... We got it, so we find ways to use it. Nothing is wasted. The power to run the water maker either comes from solar, the wind, the genset or the alternator if the motor is running. We are surrounded by billions of gallons of water... Why not use it??

The fishies use it, the whales and dolphins use it... Why not us??

Ken
I assume it was a typo Ken, but I didn't want a false impression to hang out there, so just a little correction, so my phone and email don't ring off the hook with folks thinkging they are damaging their RO Membrarne... Water makers don't need to be run once or twice per day...but per week. I tell folks 2-3 runnings per week will keep your membrane happy and if you can't do that (for whatever reason) then just do a 2-3minute fresh water flush. Since we live aboard full time, we only pickle the water maker when we leave the boat in a marina to go home for a visit or something like that.

There is lots of misinformation and what I call "Cruise Rumor" swirling around the need for fresh water flushing and "pickling", which is just a fancy way to say adding a sterlizing agent to kill biological life. It's not the sea water sitting in the water maker that causes problems, but the plankton living in the sea water and what happens when it dies and starts rotting. The planktoin grows, uses all the oxygen from the water and then dies. Once the oxygen is removed from the water the anaerobic bacteria start eating the dead "bodies" and sha-Zam you get that rotten egg smell from the hydrogen sulfide gas the anaerobic bacteris give off. You don't want these plankton bodies growing, dying and leaving their exoskeletons behind in your membrane becuase they can plug the microscopic pores of the RO Membrane. This out of control growth, death and rotting cycle happens a lot faster in warmer waters. For example here in Morro Bay, California I can go 7-10 days between water maker runs without getting the rotton egg sulfur smell in my product water. But when we were in warm or HOT Mexico, if I didn't run the water maker or fresh water flush it once every 3-4 days...bingo....I would get biological growth and that rotten egg smell. The amount of plankton in your sea water to start with also play a role. In biological rich waters things can get out of cotroll faster.

A good rule of thumb is the 3-4 day rule for either running or fresh water flushing the water maker. Some units have automatic fresh water flushing, so you don't have to think about it.

Pickling
As fancey as this sounds, all you are doing is pulling in a biocide to kill the biological growth while the unit sits unused. What type of biocide (and not much it costs) is based on what they of water maker you have. Some systems use Sodium Metabisulfite which is cheap, easy, and available at any home brewing store since they use it to sterlize the equipment. Marine/RV type antifreeze for putting your boat's water systems to bed for the winter can be used, or some water makers have proprietary pickling solutins that do cost an arm and leg, but if you don't use them you can damage pump seals. So don't just listen to a guy on the dock about using what the dock know-it-all is using becasue it could damage your water maker if you use the wrong stuff!
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Old 14-08-2014, 09:46   #69
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Re: How Much Water Will My Liveaboard Family Use?

It's all in your attitude.

Once upon a time a friend and I were delivering an old gaff rigged yawl to New Jersey. No showers on that vessel, not to mention water makers. It started raining on us while we were tied up waiting to lock through at Great Neck, Va. It was a hot summer day and I was in my bathing suit so I grabbed the soap and proceeded to have an impromptu shower in the refreshingly cool rain. I looked across the lock, and there was a gold plater sailboat, about 50' in length waiting to pass through southbound. The crew were staring at me in amazement, as they were on deck all dressed in what looked to be top of the line weather gear">foul weather gear.

They might have been better equipped, but they weren't having more fun.
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Old 14-08-2014, 10:40   #70
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Re: How Much Water Will My Liveaboard Family Use?

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I might add that maintaining a certain level in the boat's water tank as the emergency supply in case the watermaker fails is a dangerous thing. ....................
Help me with understanding this, Skipmac. It's as if you are saying it's dangerous to keep water in your water tank. Maybe your intent is to suggest that storing water for a long term without use might result in having a tainted emergency supply and leaving you without knowledge of the "bad" water. ..... That's the caution, right? I'm without a watermaker or any plans to add one, but I do store water in three separate tanks below. I do make sure that I rotate the use from these tanks for this same concerrn for keeping the water fresh.
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Old 14-08-2014, 10:57   #71
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Re: How Much Water Will My Liveaboard Family Use?

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Help me with understanding this, Skipmac. It's as if you are saying it's dangerous to keep water in your water tank. Maybe your intent is to suggest that storing water for a long term without use might result in having a tainted emergency supply and leaving you without knowledge of the "bad" water. ..... That's the caution, right? I'm without a watermaker or any plans to add one, but I do store water in three separate tanks below. I do make sure that I rotate the use from these tanks for this same concerrn for keeping the water fresh.
Sorry think I stated that very poorly. What I was trying to say was one should not rely exclusively on a single water tank for emergency drinking water, at least when at sea or otherwise far from a fresh water supply.

If something happens to the one tank (leaks, contamination, etc) then without a separate supply of drinking water stored elsewhere you would have no drinking water. Redundancy is necessary.

In your case I would think three, separate and independent tanks would supply redundancy unless they are somehow plumbed together so contamination in one would pass to the others. Even with more than one tank on a boat I would be tempted to keep a couple of jerry jugs or some gallons stashed around.

By the way, I have had the water in my tank go bad before. Filled up with water at a marina with desalinated water in the Bahamas. In the warm weather without any chlorine in the water within a couple of weeks the water started smelling rotten and was undrinkable. Only one tank on the boat so we had to resort to our stash of gallon jugs until we could fill up again.
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Old 14-08-2014, 12:11   #72
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Re: How Much Water Will My Liveaboard Family Use?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that RO water, if not treated will go bad much quicker than tap water.
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Old 16-08-2014, 10:53   #73
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Re: How Much Water Will My Liveaboard Family Use?

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Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that RO water, if not treated will go bad much quicker than tap water.
I guess that could be "true" in the same way fresh home made bread will mold faster than store bought bread packed with preservatives. But it's not the fresh bread's "fault" just like it's not the RO Water's "fault". It's just that there isn't an additive to inhibit biological growth.

RO water, unlike tap water, doesn't have any chlorine added to it, so without the chlorine being added to your water tanks the nasty critters already living in the water tank don't have something to kill them. "Going Bad" I assume refers to biological growth, and by not having chlorine in the RO water, biological growth can happen sooner in RO Water. But remember, after about 10 days the Chlorine in tab water will off gas and be gone anyway…so then the waters are pretty much equal in “going bad”.
We only add water maker water to our tanks and have for the last 7 years and we bleach our tanks every 6 months because if we don’t algae will grow in the tank no matter how careful you are and it will start tasting, as my wife says, like a pond. We have an activated carbon filter on the outlet of our pressurized water pump so we never smell or taste chlorine and of course we don’t fresh water flush the water maker with tank water for 2 weeks after adding the cup of bleach per 50 gallons of water!
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Old 16-08-2014, 12:00   #74
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Re: How Much Water Will My Liveaboard Family Use?

Has anyone tried a UV light source in a tank to sterilize the water?
I assume if you had baffles it wouldn't work, any idea how much power would be reequired? Could this work on an hour per day or would it have to be continous?
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Old 16-08-2014, 12:41   #75
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Re: How Much Water Will My Liveaboard Family Ult

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All that I can think of have drawbacks, like propane, Solar or electrical resistance, any others?
a64pilot ,

I've just raised the temp of my boiler with 20C in an hour (60 liters content) using an eberspacher interior heater ( similar to webasto ) , by means of a heat exchanger and diy installation .
Need to do the dishes later on.


As to watermakers , we have a 10 gallon (40 liter) 12 volt type - ecotech basic type no fragile electronics - and can make water when on engine . Without using our genset .
A 12 volt type allows you to make water on solar ( i have 700 watt and will soon increase to nearly 1000watt,......piek mind you ..) or while on engine ,.......or using genset with batterychargers , or windgen,....need i go on ?
I do have invertor(s) on board you know , but they can break down so easily in a salty climate. Again , electronics !.
12 volt watermakers are more flexible than 110 AC (in my case 220).
Maybe the output is somewhat limited , but hey , rinsing the deck daily with fresh water ???? extra question mark sorry.
I used to be a camper , 10 liters for a shower is really ok. On board that can be less.
On a boat when you feel sweaty you jump,...no ?
2 days ago I've washed my hair (which is fairly long) in the sea and used some extra shampoo , man was that foaming.
I didn't do that to save water , no , in the sea you have the space and supply to waste water. My bathrooms , wet cells on board ( 40 feet ) are rather confined you see. The ocean is so much bigger.

To make it clear , i'm pro water makers let there be no doubt .
But let's put everthing in perspective right.

Regards
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