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Old 15-07-2009, 18:54   #16
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A classic definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Hence the war on drugs. The more they "fight" it the more drugs there are. makes no sense to me.

Just why in the hell can't the government just leave people alone? I have not smoked weed since Nam but I support the end of the "Drug War". For agents storming on a boat?? Pitiful.
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Old 15-07-2009, 18:54   #17
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Old 15-07-2009, 19:13   #18
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constitution

Hey folks, the great document called the Constitution states nowhere that a person is innocent until proven guilty. In this country we have what is called an adversarial system. Unfortunately one must prove their innocence with the best case/argument. So many laws, not enough paper. Im surprised the environmentalists havnt taken a stand on the govt's thousand page bills lately.
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Old 15-07-2009, 19:19   #19
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When I was studying Constitutional law way back, the Supreme court did make a distinction between your person and your car is the case I am thinking of. The ruling was predicated on a resonalbe difference in expectations of privacy on your car (essentially none) and your person. The ruling did give a certain latititude to do pat downs, they were considered resonable. Turning your pockets inside out was not. Now, they can arrest you, then do a search, but the arrest must have sufficent probable cause. If it doesn't meet those requirements, the exclusionary rules apply. Probably the DA said it was an ill founded pursuit and decided to look for any reason to throw it out, especially since the search of your person may have been subject to review. Sounds like he used a chain of evidence rule to justify not doing anything.

As for protest, it is amazing the things that authorities can do. They might not be legal, but the issues has often been "who will bring them to task?" The same police doing the illegal things? You think the beatings you have seen and unreasonable treatment witnessed in some of these videos is extremely rare? There are some police jurisdication that have been famous for it? Ask anyone about Signal Hill Policemen in the 70's. They had to kill someone in custody before some of the brutal tactics were stopped.... Sigh...

But, it amazes me how much we as US citizens allow. You ask most people and they will say, hey why should upi object, what do you have to hide? Sigh... Who said a person who give up essential liberties to gain safety deserves neither... OH yeah, that guy who made bi-focal glasses and was a postmaster or something.
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Old 15-07-2009, 19:27   #20
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Geo,

Yes you can video the boarding the thing is the men in uniform will try and tell you no but my lawyer told me that as the owner of the boat or just the person in control you have the right to ask for ID's and video them on your boat, he even recomended that you do so. The way i understand it from the lawyer they have a right to board you looking for safty violations and contraband, this brings this to the main point of the post.

When you are boarded they will ask your permission to board and search, my question to the lawyer was. Why ask if they have the right? his answer was they have limited rights to board and they play on the man in uniform hoping people will be scared to say no. to me the answer was misleading. They either have a right to board or not.

What i plan to do if i am ever boarded again is to just answer if you have authorty to board then do so(you have guns i dont) but if you are asking me for permission the answer is no, how would you like me to come to your home and go through your bathroom or even look under your bed, the point here is your not refusing you are just protecting your rights. I also have a camera ready for the next time and i will not ask them i will just start recording.

I left a few things out of the ordeal waiting to hear back from my lawyer. At this time he is working on the way 4 to 5 different goverment agencies can do an operation based sololy on a tip and make so many mistakes, costing the Tax payers $1,000's. He is also unsure how public he wants to make this.

I hope you all understand that I do not condone the use of illegal drugs. What i care about is protecting my rights only.

I will try to update this in a few days as i get more info.

Dutch
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Old 15-07-2009, 19:32   #21
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Hmmm... The Due process clause of the 5th ammendment the courts have said provide some measure of "assumption of innocences". But, you're right no explicit "presumption of innocense". But it has been established that the state must substantiate the claims against you. You don't have to prove your innocense. The state always has the "burdeon of proff"
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Old 15-07-2009, 21:51   #22
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In the case of the USA, the feds have the right to board you at any time for any reason or no reason at all. If you don't like it, you have a couple of different options. 1.) You can do as the people who harnessed us with these rules, and make a change politicly, either work on the rules of engagement for enforcement or seek to cut the budgets of those in enforcement, or back a candidate who is on the same track regarding unreasonable search and seizures, who wants to curtail the infringements on personal freedoms & privacy. Here is the deal, you have to get involved with the system to make any real changes, that is the lesson the Christian right learned when they took over the Republican party, and they are a force to be reckoned with. Take a page from their manual and find a candidate that is a constitutionalist and back them, get all your friends to back them. It is a lot of work and it will never be easy. Did anyone here vote for Ron Paul? Or give money to his candidacy? If all you are going to do is lay back and cry about your rights being taken away then it is a fools quest at best. If you went to the live aboard lifestyle to get away from all the rules and regulations, then stop hanging around where people congregate and go out where there are none. Ultimately you will render unto Caesar. That is the reality of the world.
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Old 16-07-2009, 20:56   #23
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Old 16-07-2009, 21:35   #24
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I hope you all understand that I do not condone the use of illegal drugs. What i care about is protecting my rights only.
S'ok. I'll condone it for you. I won't recommend it, but I'll condone it.

Stupid DHS. The only way to make it more Orwellian would be to call it: The People's Department of Homeland Security.
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Old 16-07-2009, 21:46   #25
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About 3 months ago, I was prompted to go to www.lp.org.

Son of a gun, it looks like I'm REALLY a Liberatarian: "just leave us the &%$@ alone!".
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Old 17-07-2009, 19:08   #26
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While not super-concerned that anyone is going to confiscate my stash of Advil, this thread did pique my curiosity. I asked a trusted friend to glance at the thread and give me his general thoughts. I think he was in the Coast Guard for at least 10 years or so before recently taking a job with a different organization related to some sort of border security.

It's been mentioned that there are other threads in the forums detailing this so maybe this is redundant, but it was informative to me so I thought I'd pass it along.

Also, some of the comments earlier in this thread did kind of sound like being on a boat in U.S. waters meant the abdication of all rights to privacy. That's not the case.

Anyway, this was his response after a little editing out of personal information and emphasis:

Quote:
You still have your fourth amendment rights on your boat. Government agents can not just come onboard for no reason and conduct a search without probable cause. There are exceptions. The most common that you could run into are; border search and coast guard safety inspection.

A border search can take place when a vessel arrives in US waters, coming from a foreign country. This is generally conducted by CBP and everything can be looked through.

A CG safety inspection can be done anytime a boat is on the water (including at anchor and moored). This is not a search. They are ensuring that boats and all required safety equipment is onboard and in good order. In order to complete this task, officers are allowed in common spaces and/or spaces necessary to check the boats marine sanitation systems. Common spaces are areas that people generally do not have a reasonable expectation of privacy (pilot house, engine room, galley, etc). The coast guard can't just open up drawers or cupboards without consent. These boarding can turn into a search if the officer builds probable cause that criminal activity has or is taking place.

So, the "MAN" cannot come on your boat and search everywhere without a warrant or PC, he can come onboard to check safety gear and documents.
Now I can't get "Know Your Rights" by The Clash out of my head.
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Old 17-07-2009, 19:33   #27
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The legal question still bouncing around in my head is the line at which probable cause overrides the need for a warrant.

It doesn't seem to me that a phone tip about someone having drugs would be enough to board without consent prior to obtaining a search warrant. There is likely an exception to (i.e. a higher "probability" in the probable cause test) this in the event that there is a reasonable expectation that transport or exchange is in progress.

All of this is a moot point if consent was given to search, but it still has me thinking.
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Old 18-07-2009, 09:07   #28
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The crux of this would appear to be that HS came in without a warrant on the basis of "probable cause". However, even with cause if there was time for a warrant to be sought and issued--that's reason to throw out the case. Especially if the judge believes in the Fourth Amendment.

Even if a judge thought there was probable cause, the moment they find out that the tip was bogus (from a junkie? an anonynous phone call?) with no research and no backup...out goes the probable cause again.

You don't give up your rights by living on a boat. You give them up by allowing a federal government to claim you no longer have them, when in fact you do. Of course, the only way you can have your rights reinstated is by changing the government. At the polls or by force of arms, either way will do. Both were condoned by the folks who set it up, although they also made it clear that force of arms was really not the preferred way to go.

DHS? Domestic terrorists, no more no less. If you're a citizen you're obligated to treat them like any other terrorists. Sandbag 'em, slow 'em down, send 'em on a donut chase. A dog and pony show like TSA or DHS only helps the real bad guys hurt us harder.

Now the question is, while all those assets were rousting YOUR BOAT...what clever fellow really was bringing in a hundred keys of real drugs, just down the creek?
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Old 18-07-2009, 09:28   #29
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I would be very surprised if the OP was busted by "Homeland Security." Rather, one or more levels of law enforcement within DHS, like the Coast Guard, were probably involved, along with local law enforcement from various authorities - state, county, city.

I'm also dubious about a judge "throwing it out." Much more likely is that the local District Attorney's office rejected it, which is to say that after spending thousands of dollars to bust one guy with a miniscule amount of weed in a time of severely stressed budgets and declining tax revenues, no DA wants to look even more ridiculous by prosecuting such a lame bust.

The OP's attorney may have been told some cover story about chain-of-evidence issues, but the likelier explanation is that it was too puny and absurd to waste additional resources pursuing it.

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Old 18-07-2009, 10:20   #30
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TAO,

Very intutive of you on that one. You hit it dead on. I can just see a defense attorney pointing all that out from the lips of the officals on the witness stand. "It cost how much to prosecute this bust? How much to provide a helo per hour, they were up there how long? What does that work out to?" ...and so on and on and on.

No doubt that is not something you want in the news if you are a public offical.
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