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Old 19-05-2013, 11:42   #106
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Besides the superficial "I don't like the way their boat looks from the jacuzzi on my veranda as Joffery brings me a mimosa" argument, I think the main concern EVERYONE has is sanitation. Obviously we don't want them dumping out and yes, some don't have working motors to pump out. Marine composting toilets running upwards of $1,000 sure isn't a solution.

This is where cruising's land-based sister group (homesteading) can be of some help:

Make a composting toilet for $20.

http://humanurehandbook.com/humanure_toilet.html

I'd be willing to make a few on my dime for people that needed it.

So which is better? Spending tax payer money to jail them, salvage their boats and ruin the anchorage for everyone else by charging huge fees or forbidding entirely, or be a human being and help someone in need in a way that takes very little from you and gives very much to them?
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Old 19-05-2013, 11:43   #107
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Re: Hobos Afloat

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
................ We have two live-aboard boats that I know of out in Boca Ciega Bay right now with no working motors, but both have sails and owners who know how to sail them -- and who do. So they meet the state requirement and are never "hassled."
.....and this is as it should be,- lvieaboards using the public waterways without risk and detriment to others.
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Old 19-05-2013, 12:27   #108
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Originally Posted by MBLittle View Post
... So which is better? Spending tax payer money to jail them, salvage their boats and ruin the anchorage for everyone else by charging huge fees or forbidding entirely, or be a human being and help someone in need in a way that takes very little from you and gives very much to them?
Prob is it's too late for the latter choice. The STATE has been put into motion. At least FL. They hired water cops, made the rules. It wasn't dealt with boat by boat as it could have/should have been and cruisers are paying for it with mooring fields, landing fees, water charges etc.

I think we all get that our daily donations of #2 aren't hurting the planet, comparatively, but now we have a whole industry dedicated to "dealing" with it.

Water cops need to keep busy so now I can't safely have a beer going along in a dinghy. A fishing pole is probable cause to get the once over.
I can't run my 3.3 on my dink safely due to my row boat becoming a registrationally eligible conveyance. Once the govt steps in to help ...

The focus on paying taxes is misplaced. I mentioned voting as well, and what I meant was being a participant, a citizen...getting some skin in the game.
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Old 19-05-2013, 12:42   #109
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Re: Hobos Afloat

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Now things have changed for 47% of US residents. The term "citizen" means nothing anymore. But every now and then doncha wonder where the money comes from?

That's easy. UNLIMITED printing of bogus money by the Fed to make us think everything's OK.

But that's just my 2 cents worth.

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Old 19-05-2013, 12:42   #110
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Re: Hobos Afloat

I don't quite get this motor requirement making your boat not a hazard. Many motors don't really work, so do we get government inspections on how well your motor runs?
And just sails MAKE you a hazard because you can't get out of the way!

One thing I really liked about Mexico is the lack of government/rules. It might be too far on the lack-of side, but the USA has become WAY too far on the non-lack-of side.
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Old 19-05-2013, 13:53   #111
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Re: Hobos Afloat

Ah voting. Voting gives the illusion that you have some control over government. Yes on the local level voting still works. On the federal level the reality is the business has a strangle hold on government in the form of PAC's and superpac's and unlimited contributions.

The Koch brothers and the like, plus our friends like Monsanto have a far bigger say on who gets elected or runs for office. Does anyone believe that Romney was the shining star of the republican party. He had the most money and strong backers in business. Oh there are exceptions, which gives me a small bit of hope.

Do I vote... No. Its hard to prove your address when your an anchor out and move around. I tried and gave up.

The other problem with trying to solve the bum boater/ homeless, is its really a low priority on government radar. With budget cuts and tight budgets everywhere, there just is not enough manpower or budget to deal with the homeless situation. Less now then even last year.
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Old 19-05-2013, 14:05   #112
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Re: Hobos Afloat

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Originally Posted by MBLittle View Post
Besides the superficial "I don't like the way their boat looks from the jacuzzi on my veranda as Joffery brings me a mimosa" argument, I think the main concern EVERYONE has is sanitation. Obviously we don't want them dumping out and yes, some don't have working motors to pump out. Marine composting toilets running upwards of $1,000 sure isn't a solution.

This is where cruising's land-based sister group (homesteading) can be of some help:

Make a composting toilet for $20.

The Humanure Handbook - Build your own humanure toilet!

I'd be willing to make a few on my dime for people that needed it.

So which is better? Spending tax payer money to jail them, salvage their boats and ruin the anchorage for everyone else by charging huge fees or forbidding entirely, or be a human being and help someone in need in a way that takes very little from you and gives very much to them?
Unfortunately it's not always going to be that simple. The fellow who ended up aground in Gulfport had dog poop all over his boat and didn't bother to pick it up for himself. He had RATS as well as roaches on his boat.
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Old 19-05-2013, 14:08   #113
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Re: Hobos Afloat

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Prob is it's too late for the latter choice. The STATE has been put into motion. At least FL. They hired water cops, made the rules. It wasn't dealt with boat by boat as it could have/should have been and cruisers are paying for it with mooring fields, landing fees, water charges etc.

I think we all get that our daily donations of #2 aren't hurting the planet, comparatively, but now we have a whole industry dedicated to "dealing" with it.

Water cops need to keep busy so now I can't safely have a beer going along in a dinghy. A fishing pole is probable cause to get the once over.
I can't run my 3.3 on my dink safely due to my row boat becoming a registrationally eligible conveyance. Once the govt steps in to help ...

The focus on paying taxes is misplaced. I mentioned voting as well, and what I meant was being a participant, a citizen...getting some skin in the game.

Personally I don't have a prolem with mooring fields. If I'm at a mooring field I know that the boats moored near me arn't going to swing into me. They're unlikely to drag into me in a storm because their ground tackle was only adequate for lunch. Etc. The one they're going to put in near where I used to live will have weekly pumpout at the boat. It doesn't get much more convenient than that.
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Old 19-05-2013, 14:10   #114
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Re: Hobos Afloat

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Originally Posted by nimblemotors View Post
I don't quite get this motor requirement making your boat not a hazard. Many motors don't really work, so do we get government inspections on how well your motor runs?
And just sails MAKE you a hazard because you can't get out of the way!

One thing I really liked about Mexico is the lack of government/rules. It might be too far on the lack-of side, but the USA has become WAY too far on the non-lack-of side.

You misunderstood me. Sails OR motor. Either is FINE in Florida, and imagining "what's next" is just that -- imaginaing. In Florida, the rule is that if you move your boat only once a year, anchored out you're not a "live-aboard," and you're allowed to stay.
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Old 19-05-2013, 14:11   #115
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.....and this is as it should be,- lvieaboards using the public waterways without risk and detriment to others.
+1
Huge difference between live aboards, and being a bum on a floating hull.
I live aboard and am not wealthy, my boat is not immaculate by any means.
However I work hard to make sure my choices do not impact others or cause harm as much as I can.

Down on your luck, out of work does not make a bum. Homelessness neither.
In fact I know some bums hold public office...
It's an attitude, that of taking advantage of others as much as possible, and causing harm with no concern so long as it means not contributing.



A key point in the 'but they would be I'm the same situation on land' argument is being missed.

An uncared for van or a tent or a shack does not:

-drift around violently and destroy other's homes, potentially causing injuries to others.
-Sink
-Cost thousands of dollars in disposal fees when abandoned.




The derelict boats here are a real hazard. In fact a lot of the anchoring regulations are the results of the behavior of a few people off and on as they acquire and lose free boats.
From tying up to navigation buoys, creating floating blockades anchored in such a way as to block the entrance or exit of any boat from a marina and drifting/crashing into other boats docked and at anchor on a regular basis they are a real hassle, and ruinning it for those who would live aboard with some care towards their neighbors.

So far I have two friends who've needed extensive repairs from these derelict boats, one went right through the hull deck joint when it drifted, and two other times have had their anchors fouled and pulled up by the same boats dropping anchor right on top of them.

Other popular activities have included
-camping out on the public dock resulting in increased enforcement there ruining it for the rest of us.
-Abusing the forms and anchoring permits resulting in the closing of two loopholes and any access to the forms outside of buisness hours.

-Overboard discharge of everything from a morning dump over the transom right up to a 90lb 6' wide engine hatch that floated around for weeks.



I have lost two expensive anchors I loaned out to help with one part of the issue, first a 35lb cqr on 50' of good chain and 200' of nylon(replacing a15lb danforth on a few feet of 1/4 chain). This was lost when the rode was cut and the boat towed for being a hazard to navigation yet again anchored in a navigational channel.

The second, a 33lb rocna on the same rode set up chafed through(different boat)

I was sympathetic towards the issue of not having money, and the stress of having a home that might be gone upon return. Since I got a slip for a year to refit I wanted to help out, and couldn't see hanging onto something I wasn't using at the time that could make all the difference to another. Especially when it could mean losing their home.


I got asked for another anchor, and some oars but have said no since I've run out of anchors, and am too broke to buy another. The individual in this case then took the boat and abandoned it on the public dock after filling the cabin with their excrement, and blowing the engine by cranking it and pouring coolant down the intake to make sure no one else could use the boat after them.
Disposal will be right around 3500$.


My sympathy has started to wane, though I still try to help when I can.

To argue that it's a matter of freedom misses the part where one's right to do as they please impacts the same rights of others.
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Old 19-05-2013, 14:25   #116
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You are one gloomy Augusta today SC but no illusions for me either. I do think gov'ts will lose sight of us again simply because they have so much else to do and the financial squeeze is on. That, and the efficacy of composting toilets and a no dumping at sea rule would solve some minor but very public issues with "Live Aboards".
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Old 19-05-2013, 15:05   #117
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This issue of paying ones fair share has really gotten a lot of press in the last 6 years but no one has said what is fair. Excluding the bums, what about the people who choose to live at anchor but dingy in to work each day. They pay taxes on income, road tax on fuel and sales taxes, but are they not paying their fair share because they don't own property or pay property tax?

Or look at the reverse, I own a business and pay thousands a year in school tax for my warehouse but have no kids. Does society owe me more of a voice or more benefits because pay in more?

In the last 15 years people have become so obsessed with punishing the few that mooch off society it's made it cost more for those who don't.

If someone lives on a boat I think they are entitled to pay less. They are not using the local fire protection or any other infrastructure and what roads they use are paid by the fuel tax and registration. And for the biggies like federal government well that's what income tax is for.

And the issue of dumping holding tanks is way overblown.
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Old 19-05-2013, 15:41   #118
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Re: Hobos Afloat

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You are one gloomy Augusta today SC but no illusions for me either. I do think gov'ts will lose sight of us again simply because they have so much else to do and the financial squeeze is on. That, and the efficacy of composting toilets and a no dumping at sea rule would solve some minor but very public issues with "Live Aboards".
Oh I'm having a delightful day, sunny and warm. Lovely day at anchor. Even the cat is happy. Just like to stir the pot a bit now and then. Without cable or TV, a girl has to have some hobby..

Oh agree that the government has about a million other things to worry about then a few bums on floating potential fix er uppers. Though with the recession from the last few years and the one starting, odds are we'll be up to our eye teeth with homeless or as I like to say; "the previously homed".
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Old 19-05-2013, 16:03   #119
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Re: Hobos Afloat

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This guy seems cool but he's the problem, unfortunately, on all three counts. We used to able to come and go with no problems. No more.
He could have set himself up as an actual cruiser, and maybe still can, but live and let live has come and gone in Murica.

Tell me what benefit he trades for his personal independence. Does he vote? Pay taxes? Pay registration? Pay for trash and sewage disposal? Water is all piped in to the Keys. Can't be cheap. He offers nothing in return that I can see.

He's getting social security I'd guess. But he hasn't been getting it for 30 years. I'm sorry all you bleeding hearts might be upset but I've known far too many "boaters" like this guy. I know half a dozen right this instant, four of whom are drawing "disability" from the govt. while living in the anchorage for nothing. I call BS.



gee's, why don't you tell us what you really think?
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Old 19-05-2013, 16:48   #120
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Re: Hobos Afloat

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This guy seems cool but he's the problem, unfortunately, on all three counts. We used to able to come and go with no problems. No more.
He could have set himself up as an actual cruiser, and maybe still can, but live and let live has come and gone in Murica.

Tell me what benefit he trades for his personal independence. Does he vote? Pay taxes? Pay registration? Pay for trash and sewage disposal? Water is all piped in to the Keys. Can't be cheap. He offers nothing in return that I can see.

He's getting social security I'd guess. But he hasn't been getting it for 30 years. I'm sorry all you bleeding hearts might be upset but I've known far too many "boaters" like this guy. I know half a dozen right this instant, four of whom are drawing "disability" from the govt. while living in the anchorage for nothing. I call BS.





gee's, why don't you tell us what you really think?


I don't know nearly enough about this man to be calling BS on anything. If he's eligible for social security, he earned it. He has low living expenses and perhaps has found a way to get along on social security alone. If so, good for him. I don't have a problem with people who don't own property not paying property tax. That's why it's called "proptery" tax.
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