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Old 20-05-2013, 06:09   #136
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Re: Hobos Afloat

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Originally Posted by rebel heart View Post
... left his danforth and 100' of line for everyone else to foul on.


So dive on it. What's the worst that could happen, someone take your "free" anchor from you as they claim it as theirs? At least you would know the ident of the A-hole.
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Old 20-05-2013, 06:27   #137
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[Mod hat on] Enough with the political comments guys... I spent the last 20 minutes editing![/mod hat]

I retired at 53. I paid into the "system" all my working life, and have no (taxable) income now.... Am I a "bum living off society"? I pay property tax on my homes, the marina where I moor charges me a hefty sum each month, I pay a pile of registration taxes for my toys.....maintenance, upkeep, insurance, more toys.... you get the picture; even though I pay no income tax, I still pay a pile of taxes!

Look at the guy moored out in the middle of nowhere in the FL Keys.... Registration taxes, fuel takes, bird food taxes, etc.... Lack of the need to pay an income tax or property tax does not equal a burden to society!
No. I don't think you are, but it has nothing to do with your taxes.


I maintain that being a bum requires willfully endangering or bothering others.
If you were drifting around crashing into other's boats, crapping directly off the deck and chucking things overboard that could damage other vessels, or the environment(batteries, hatch, toilet, stove etc). Especially if you were doing that while harassing others,
then yes, you would be a bum, tax or no tax.


A local example would be the guy who was living on a leaky boat. leak caused by drilling right through the hull mounting a depth sounder designed for a small powerboat. Then bouncing off the rocks a few times due to running around and drifting aground repeatedly while drunk.

He demanded a free haul out from the yard. Refused to use the tidal grid despite the offer of free instruction since it was too much work.
Coast guard was pumping his boat out every a day to keep it from sinking.
I'd say he was being a bum.

Both of these people would be less of a risk to others on land.
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Old 20-05-2013, 06:45   #138
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Nice post above, Richard.

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Originally Posted by capngeo View Post
I retired at 53. I paid into the "system" all my working life, and have no (taxable) income now.... Am I a "bum living off society"? I pay property tax on my homes, the marina where I moor charges me a hefty sum each month, I pay a pile of registration taxes for my toys.....maintenance, upkeep, insurance, more toys.... you get the picture; even though I pay no income tax, I still pay a pile of taxes!

Look at the guy moored out in the middle of nowhere in the FL Keys.... Registration taxes, fuel takes, bird food taxes, etc.... Lack of the need to pay an income tax or property tax does not equal a burden to society!
You guys are stuck on taxation. Geo, you obviously have skin in the game. More than most, I'd say. Pelagic asks if he is a bum for retiring early. Same rhetorical question in my mind. Odds are that Dywan did work some earlier. And he was at the fire station every Sunday for some reason. Maybe he ... who the hell knows or cares?

He had a good run in Big Pine Key. Does he hang in there and fight it with the ultimate result that anchoring gets restricted when BPK puts in a mooring field that no one needs or wants? All Dywan has to do to avoid causing problems for all of us is move around a little. Out of sight, out of mind.

Not moving might be seen as good in someone's vision but that crusade has ended. We lost. We can no longer anchor anything anywhere for as long as we want flaunting neighborhood associations and dumping off the transom. Cruisers playing by the rules have longer dinghy rides as the best spots are now covered with mooring balls. But we did not lose everything; we can still come and go, just not sit forever. Seems like a decent trade off.
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Old 20-05-2013, 06:49   #139
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Re: Hobos Afloat

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Both of these people would be less of a risk to others on land.
I'm not sure about that, but you certainly notice them more when on the water partly because they are relatively rare and it does take some skill to find, maintain, and get back and forth from a boat. There are lots more "bums," for lack of a better word, living on land than on the water, and they can and do cause all sorts of problems for people--abandoned properties catching on fire, people's yards used as bathrooms, cars being used as living quarters, parks becoming campgrounds, etc. It is the NIMBY (not in my backyard) syndrome. I can distinctly remember when Rhode Island decided to cut way back on funding for public mental health patients, so facilities had to discharge lots of people. It turned out what they would do is drive them down to the local bus station and give them $50 in the hopes they would take a bus somewhere, anywhere. In those days that was enough money to get a one-way ticket almost anywhere in the country. A lot of them ended up living in bus terminals until they got kicked out. Apparently that is still an accepted practice:

Quote:
Updated: Jan 31, 2013 4:22 PM EST
SAN ANTONIO (AP) - The San Antonio Express-News reports nearly 600 patients discharged from the San Antonio State Hospital have been dropped off at the downtown Greyhound bus station since January 2008. 1 of them -- Raquel Padilla -- was found dead three days later in a concrete ditch -- having never gotten on that bus back to Del Rio. The 54-year-old suffered from schizophrenia and mild retardation but was in the care of the state hospital for the seriously mentally ill until workers decided to send her home by dropping her off at the bus station. Her brother Juan Padilla says she wasn't capable of taking care of herself, especially in the big city. The San Antonio State Hospital superintendent, Bob Arizpe, said employees were following procedure when they dropped Padilla off, and a staff member saw her standing in line for the bus on Dec. 20. Other state mental hospitals also drop patients at bus stations in comparable numbers says Emily Palmer -- a spokeswoman for the Texas Department of State Health Services. But no exact figures were available.
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Old 20-05-2013, 06:55   #140
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Re: Hobos Afloat

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Originally Posted by haw1961 View Post
Nobody is riding for free. There are taxes attatched to everything. Period! I can't remember but I think the sales tax in monroe county is 7.5% Don't even get me started with fuel. Everybody, including Ken and Babs does what they can to cut their tax bill. To think somebody isn't paying their fair share is ridiculous. Mitt Romney and Barack Obama both pay smaller % of taxes than me and I am just a working man.
No sure about all this, but there is no tax on food in FL. That's what I spend most my money on when cruising. with no tax yet on Internet sales yet, plenty of guys in FL are paying almost zero tax when living aboard.
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Old 20-05-2013, 07:22   #141
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Re: Hobos Afloat

The paying no tax argument is bogus. Where in the Constitution does it say that the amount of tax you pay has anything to do with your rights as a citizen? We are all equal, we all own the public waters and lands equally, regardless of how much tax we pay. The landowner ashore looking out on the harbor has no more right to that harbor than does the guy anchored on his boat out there. They are both allowed to use the harbor, but not abuse it, but one has no greater claim to more of it than another based on the amount of taxes they pay. The vast majority of property and other local taxes go to services that the boater doesn't use: police, fire, schools, roads, etc. Sure, the boater uses a bit of water, and maybe ties up his dinghy at a public landing, but you can guarantee that the boater does purchase groceries, services, equipment, fuel, etc., and all of those things have taxes associated with them. The groceries themselves might not have a sales tax on them, but the building owner pays property taxes and water taxes and sewer taxes, etc., and all those fees are rolled into the price of the groceries. Everyone pays taxes, just different ways.
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Old 20-05-2013, 07:31   #142
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Re: Hobos Afloat

I think the issue is not the water space, but the infrastructure one uses ashore? If one pays dinghy dockage and pays for his water and garbage disposal, that's fine. If one ties up behind a grocery store in a mangrove creek, sticks there garbage is the launch ramp cans, takes water from public taps, that's the issue.
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Old 20-05-2013, 07:42   #143
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Re: Hobos Afloat

.taxation is unconstitutional....where in us constitution does it say to pay taxes..rodlmao..
rebel heart--you need to sail east coast and gulf of mexico before saying these things---you are not correct....."You also don't have boats in the States fouling on long line floats or randomly ending up trapped in a marina because no one is paying for a dredger. Not even going to get into trash on the beaches."

kenomac--your nursie wife must be young..... she will be collecting her share of her fica taxation soon enough--thank gods for working spousal units when the stuff hits financial fans....you have her to fall back on-- remember--i , too, am rn--worked over 30 yrs in ntensive situations, inclusive of cath lab, icu --all of the areas including trauma and arrhythmias, managed post anes care for a long enough time to be recognised for it, and emergency room in downtown lost angeles....and triaged in spanish for over 6 yrs.....i draw my taxation spoils, yes--i donated over 500thousand usd into the ssi funds --rodlmao--over my lifetime, of which i will regain less than 1/3 in my lifetime.....yes i EARNED my right to become disabled and receive that which i have been thoroughly taxed for..
i have watched as folks with cocky attitudes and executive positions became lost souls due to homelessness caused by downsizing.....and more---i will do my part to make those folks have something to own, when i possibly am able to so do. yes i will give stuff away.

walk a mile in his shoes before criticizing..you may learn the hard way about the same things he is learning as you judge him.

i dont say my words in anger--just in amazement that there are soo many souls willing to judge despite the teachings of their allegedly christian beliefs.


might just as well diss someone for being born nekkid.....rodlmao


i believe the true issue is jealousy of someone having a free life without the crap allegedly normal souls have to tolerate....
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Old 20-05-2013, 07:53   #144
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Re: Hobos Afloat

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There are a handful of shitty boats lying to anchors outside Marina Del Rey in Ca. These are people living on a small boat anchored in the open ocean, with only an oblique angle to the MDR breakwater to soften the waves once I'm a while. Their boats are constantly pitching on the ocean swell rolling into shore. When it is real bad they duck inside MDR and tie up to a local park til it blows over and they get kicked out. I am sure they all have issues and are social misfits. But I think living like that takes an amount of courage that not a lot of us have. I don't mind if a bit of my taxes go to support people like that. It can't be much and DC fatcats living high on the hog seems like a much bigger waste to me.

The biggest problem here are people who anchor (or even moor) their boats in the bay and then ignore them. We had a boat with a really good mooring run aground in a storm because his pennant wore through. He had even been told it was threadbare, but he didn't fix it.

It was driven high and dry, and then the county started dealing with the sunk or aground boats. I happened to go over and take pictures of the first one, which had sunk, and the guy told me he'd also been authorized to take two more, including the one I mentioned. The fellow said the county was fed up and that the owners would be charged with felony littering, loaned some nice matching stainless steel bracelets, and spend a night courtesy of the county. Then they would be charged with felony littering (that may not be the exact name of the law).

Someone I knew knew this guy, so I told him, and a couple of days later somehow he got the boat back out to its mooring, with a fresh pennant. The next day Fish & Wildlife, and the salvager came, but his boat was no longer aground, and they left. He missed all those consequences by less than a day.

Those boats -- the ones hanging on by a thread because their owners never check them -- bother me the most, because they could hit another boat in their "wanderings." If I'm anchored out there, which I am sometimes, it could be mine.
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Old 20-05-2013, 07:56   #145
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Re: Hobos Afloat

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I think the issue is not the water space, but the infrastructure one uses ashore? If one pays dinghy dockage and pays for his water and garbage disposal, that's fine. If one ties up behind a grocery store in a mangrove creek, sticks there garbage is the launch ramp cans, takes water from public taps, that's the issue.
Everyone pays taxes, as pointed out above, and the tiny cost of the services used by boaters is less than the rounding error in the budgets of most communities. In general, studies show that taken as a whole the boating community brings money into a community out of proportion to their costs. But, some places insist on worrying that someone isn't paying "their fair share" so they install a pay mooring field, and pay dinghy docks, and pay this and that. In some places it works to raise revenues, but in many it turns out that the cost of installing and maintaining and collecting the fees and staffing, etc., actually costs the community more than it brings in. That is the case in Marathon, FL, where the city marina and mooring field is only kept afloat by $$hundreds of thousands of county dollars collected from all the landowners ashore. In their zeal to "make everyone pay their fair share" they have raised the costs for everyone, including themselves, and they have chased away those who prefer to anchor, and who might spend thousands of dollars there, like I did when anchored there back in 2006. Probably couldn't find a place to anchor now, so my spending will go elsewhere.
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Old 20-05-2013, 08:00   #146
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Re: Hobos Afloat

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Originally Posted by Blue Crab View Post
Cruisers playing by the rules have longer dinghy rides as the best spots are now covered with mooring balls.
I hear what you are saying but put it in perspective. For almost 2 yrs I rowed 3 miles to and fro to get to work. It wasn't because I didn't have another means of transportation, it was because I wanted to. Even against the tide, even in inclement weather it was because I wanted to. It could be worse, that is what I am saying. Sail on sailor.

I just now noticed you complimented my earlier post. Thank you.
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Old 20-05-2013, 08:03   #147
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Re: Hobos Afloat

That I said that cracks me up. Why? Because for yrs I have thought of the absurdity found in optimism expressed thusly:

People say, cheer up it could be worse.
Then when it is worse they say cheer up it can only get better.

How profound.
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Old 20-05-2013, 08:10   #148
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Re: Hobos Afloat

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I can distinctly remember when Rhode Island decided to cut way back on funding for public mental health patients, so facilities had to discharge lots of people. It turned out what they would do is drive them down to the local bus station and give them $50 in the hopes they would take a bus somewhere, anywhere. In those days that was enough money to get a one-way ticket almost anywhere in the country. A lot of them ended up living in bus terminals until they got kicked out. Apparently that is still an accepted practice:
The towns and cities are still doing what you say. Unfortunately for the people in my city here in Massachusetts, we are the end destination. This ongoing practice has resulted in five methadone clinics on my street, increasing violent crime, 28 food banks within a five minute walking distance... although most of the "immigrant" people collecting the spoils seem to have a nicer car than my 2001 Neon. They've turned a once very nice neighborhood into "The Hood."

Now, the first thing our guests ask us when they visit... "will my car be ok?"
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Old 20-05-2013, 08:12   #149
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Re: Hobos Afloat

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Originally Posted by Kettlewell View Post
Everyone pays taxes, as pointed out above, and the tiny cost of the services used by boaters is less than the rounding error in the budgets of most communities. In general, studies show that taken as a whole the boating community brings money into a community out of proportion to their costs. But, some places insist on worrying that someone isn't paying "their fair share" so they install a pay mooring field, and pay dinghy docks, and pay this and that. In some places it works to raise revenues, but in many it turns out that the cost of installing and maintaining and collecting the fees and staffing, etc., actually costs the community more than it brings in. That is the case in Marathon, FL, where the city marina and mooring field is only kept afloat by $$hundreds of thousands of county dollars collected from all the landowners ashore. In their zeal to "make everyone pay their fair share" they have raised the costs for everyone, including themselves, and they have chased away those who prefer to anchor, and who might spend thousands of dollars there, like I did when anchored there back in 2006. Probably couldn't find a place to anchor now, so my spending will go elsewhere.

But you are balanced out by people like me who would prefer a mooring field and welcome the amenities that come with it. Mooring fields are safer than anchoring out. If a summer storm comes through, I'm far less likely to drag, or to have someone drag into me. It's worth it to me to pay for those things.

I think the rate is quite reasonable, and there is an anchoring area beyond the mooring field.

Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks, but i don't have a problem with this.
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Old 20-05-2013, 08:26   #150
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Re: Hobos Afloat

RE: my post #133:

The 3 times someone did call the Sheriff on me because somehow they reckoned my presence was perceived as a threat to their personal safety, and the Sherf did roll on those calls; I felt more secure, more safe for it. From those calls, local law enforcement knew me, they had checked me out and found I was one of the "good guys". I knew some of them from the aero squadron and now we had something else to talk of. Even in the coffee shop, an "undercover" woman (totally hot...and single) of who I had been conducting my own 'investigation' heh heh now knew me in a way I hadn't intended. All was well.
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