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Old 30-10-2013, 14:59   #46
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Re: Hippie haul out

BTW, the excuse that following the regulations would be economically prohibitive is admission of guilt, and will earn you a "willful" violation from OSHA.


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Old 30-10-2013, 15:07   #47
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Re: Hippie haul out

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No different for you. Like you said, if you can't afford to clean bottoms within the regulations, you shouldn't be doing it.
You miss my point. I absolutely can afford to clean boat bottoms, following the letter of OSHA regulations (not law, BTW and certainly not written with hull cleaners in mind.) It's you that cannot afford it. And despite what you may think, hull cleaners in California are not violating any environmental laws, which is what this thread is about.
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Old 30-10-2013, 15:09   #48
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Re: Hippie haul out

Remember too, what is illegal for a business is not necessarily illegal for a private individual. I'm not saying it's either moral or legal for a private individual to careen and discharge toxic waste, but it is perfectly legal for one to jump in the water without any OSHA safety equipment and start cleaning the bottom (using BMPs of course) of their own boat (or their friend's boat, or...). Once you start doing something for money there's a whole raft of rules and regulations that come into play that don't apply to non-business entities.

I'm sure if I tried to open a yard where we careened vessels and did our work at low tide I'd have 27 kinds of regulatory agencies on me like barnacles on old bottom paint. As an individual, with my own boat? Then it would depend and what other things I am doing.
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Old 30-10-2013, 15:14   #49
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Re: Hippie haul out

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You miss my point. I absolutely can afford to clean boat bottoms, following the letter of OSHA regulations (not law, BTW and certainly not written with hull cleaners in mind.) It's you that cannot afford it. And despite what you may think, hull cleaners in California are not violating any environmental laws, which is what this thread is about.
That is my point.

The law doesn't say " You must do this unless your customers won't pay for it", it says "You must do it". You are not doing it.

The law doesn't say "You must not sand your bottom in the water, unless you can't afford a haul out.", it says don't do it.


The idea that you can pick and choose the laws that should be followed, based on their personal economic impact, is the definition of hipocrasy.

The OP should follow the law or not own a boat, you should follow the law as long as it's not going to affect your business.

Nothing wrong with my logic or analogy.



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Old 30-10-2013, 15:44   #50
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Re: Hippie haul out

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That is my point.

The law doesn't say " You must do this unless your customers won't pay for it", it says "You must do it". You are not doing it.

The law doesn't say "You must not sand your bottom in the water, unless you can't afford a haul out.", it says don't do it.


The idea that you can pick and choose the laws that should be followed, based on their personal economic impact, is the definition of hipocrasy.

The OP should follow the law or not own a boat, you should follow the law as long as it's not going to affect your business.

Nothing wrong with my logic or analogy.'
So the point of your argument is that I am wrong to chide the OP for intending to pollute illegally because I may not be following OSHA regulations? How about I make the point that you have no right to accuse me of that because you don't always come to a complete stop at stop signs?
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Old 30-10-2013, 15:52   #51
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Re: Hippie haul out

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So the point of your argument is that I am wrong to chide the OP for intending to pollute illegally because I may not be following OSHA regulations? How about I make the point that you have no right to accuse me of that because you don't always come to a complete stop at stop signs?

Because I haven't openly admitted that I run stop signs.

And because I'm not saying everyone should follow all of these ridiculous regulations, while hypocritically not following some myself.

Because I'm not calling the OP ignorant, and saying he shouldn't have a boat if he doesn't know and follow all of the regulations.

If everyone had to know all of the regulations before they could own their first boat, you would not have any bottoms to clean. Even efficiently and unlawfully. And, they would know not to use you, as they, and the marina, can be fined for your willful neglect, clearly defined in the statutes they would have studied.



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Old 30-10-2013, 16:34   #52
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Re: Hippie haul out

And I haven't admitted that I don't follow OSHA regulations. That was an assumption on your part. But you argued that I can't pick and choose what laws and regulations to follow. Yet you absolutely do the exact same thing. To claim you obey every single traffic law and have never willfully broken one is bullsh*t and you know it. Which means you are 100% guilty of the crime of which you came here to accuse me.
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Old 30-10-2013, 16:45   #53
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Re: Hippie haul out

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And I haven't admitted that I don't follow OSHA regulations. That was an assumption on your part. But you argued that I can't pick and choose what laws and regulations to follow. Yet you absolutely do the exact same thing. To claim you obey every single traffic law and have never willfully broken one is bullsh*t and you know it. Which means you are 100% guilty of the crime of which you came here to accuse me.
My point exactly, yet you throw stones at the OP.

I'm not the one telling anyone they should follow the laws or not own a boat.

I never claimed to obey the laws, or told anyone to, just made a comparison, albeit a not very flattering one.

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Old 30-10-2013, 16:59   #54
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Re: Hippie haul out

Let me assure anyone that it is not only improbable but impossible to be in full compliance with all OSHA regulation. Further, it is guaranteed that to be in compliance with some regs literally means you will not be in compliance with other regs.

If anyone should doubt what I say I challenge you to read through the myriad regulations while confining your reading to only OSHA. Create in your mind any scenario you can imagine. Or, ask around. Ask people engaged in operations you may consider. Then compare that to the regs. It just cannot be done that you will be in compliance with all parts which are applicable to any endeavor.

There are so many regs and sub parts, ad nauseam, even the OSHA inspectors don't know even the majority of the regs. Too, there is the problematic condition of 'vaguely written, strictly enforced' which allows wide latitude for interpretation of various parts.
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Old 30-10-2013, 17:24   #55
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Cruel responses. Makes me wonder sometimes to ask a question. I thought this place was a community to share ideas network and remember old buckets. Instead there's few responses about go search or this has been beaten to death if you don't want to give some good advice and be useful just turn around go elsewhere. Sooner or later everything will be talked about or new things develop even people will finally experience whatever was asked and never seen a old post or the thread has been closed or its just such a old thread no need to reply.

Even the response if you can't afford it don't sail? I can barely afford rent and a life on land slaving away to this government so should I just stop living? Yeah I cut corners here and there to save what's so different with the question th OP said? He was just asking for a answer not to be told to go pound salt.

This is from my month or so lerking around experance. There are a lot of respectful members here and who are very knoledgeble in this life and to all of you i thank you(sp error) for your input and sharing your knowledge. People please show the respect you would if you were looking at someone eye to eye and that wrong answer could get you a whipping when respect was taught (edit sp error)to kids unlike now.
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Old 30-10-2013, 17:42   #56
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Re: Hippie haul out

Just adults having an adult argument. Nobody's feeling were hurt. If you can stand the (very mild) heat, stay out of the kitchen.
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Old 30-10-2013, 17:43   #57
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That's adult like? Just attacking someone instead of leading them?

OK I'll just stick to reading taking the good and leaving the bad. What I need to ask I'll ask someone in person.
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Old 30-10-2013, 18:24   #58
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Re: Hippie haul out

Who got attacked?
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Old 30-10-2013, 18:29   #59
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Re: Hippie haul out

The OP was called ignorant, ROFLMAO'd, told he shouldn't have a boat.

Thought I was at SA for a minute.

And I would think there were 2 potential customers for somebody.


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Old 30-10-2013, 18:56   #60
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Yea, wonderful world of the internet and smartphones let's me follow this entire thread from start to finish. I've read each and every single post. This boat is going to be my first boat, I have never lived on a boat and my brother and I are investing in a pair of islanders (smart).

Thanks for the helpful posts, I still haven't gotten any help on where or how to careen my boat for any purpose in this area.
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