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Old 05-07-2013, 11:01   #1
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Help estimating cost of European living estimates as live aboards.

We are planning to sell-up & sail in 2016. We are researching all aspects of live aboard life. Our lifestyle will be lived on the 'hook' mostly and not in marinas. The many books have contradictory opinions on the subject of a monthly/yearly sums concerning costs to live around the Mediterranean (excluding boat maintenance). Many of these books have been written some years ago and I am trying to find out how things have changed percentage wise? Any clues you live aboard guys out there? Obviously one cannot cost exactly how much but there must be some yearly estimates out there as I gather liveaboards tend to keep meticulous accounts and track of their expenditure??
We are aiming to buy a used F.P Athena or Antigua and are starting from Devon or Cornwall in the UK then going across Biscay to La Coruna then around Spain, Portugal then into Med. Any average percentages would be better than relying on a number of great books which are somewhat historic. It would be great to talk with F.P. Owners as we originally were aiming at Lagoon but having visited the Multihull boatshow in 2013 Gosport I heard some anecdotal stories about lagoon's windward performance also on inspection the Lagoon bridgedeck hull did seem very low compared with FP. Prone to slamming methinks? This merely informed more of our decision making processes. The multihull boatshow weather was blowing a hooley! Force 8 gusting 9 at times. On Saturday the Broadblue 385 was the only show boat which ventured out for a test sail. I was very impressed with both windward capability and overall seagoing motion and stability plus she had a great turn of speed with 2 reefs in the main & a reduced headsail. This experience converted me from years of monohull sailing. Chris & Catarina
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Old 10-07-2013, 01:12   #2
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Re: Help estimating cost of European living estimates as live aboards.

hi try here

Liveaboard Link
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Old 10-07-2013, 02:29   #3
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Re: Help estimating cost of European living estimates as live aboards.

Our friends who have been doing the same for 11 years claim you can live well on 2000 dollars per month. For 2500 dollars, you can even eat out quite a few times and live quite well. It all depends on how much you move around via motor and the general condition of your boat and the ongoing repairs required... and how much you're willing to do yourself.

We also live here in the Med four months/year, and have found the estimates to be accurate. I guess it also depends on how much food you eat.
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Old 10-07-2013, 02:52   #4
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Having spent three summers , recently( 2010-2012) , in the south of France, and Western med, on a small mono .


I d say average food costs for two are about 100 euros a week , ( typical warm weather foods , local or seasonal) excluding eating out , eating out, excluding drink can be easily done for 10-15 a head, especially lunch ,this isn't fine dining of course , but most food Is france/Italy etc is fabulous . ( and well better then your local pub cavery) . The street markets/ food markets offer the best quality. Wine in supermarkets can be surprisingly expensive, but you can get co-operative wine for about 1euro a litre , bring a big plastic container.

This is shopping for mostly basics , with meat , chicken, fish , maybe 3-4 times a week , ( Carrefour do some nice one pot tinned beef goulashs, very useful when you run out of provisions)

Spirits are cheap( er) in Italy. Beer , especially draft beer is way more expensive then the UK , pint for pint . Avoid the obvious tourist traps ( menus with pictures , or advertising " Engleesh breakfast etc" )

You will find , well we did, that you spend a lot of time hunting down food, firstly its time consuming , distance , walking etc, then you have limited cold storage , and most fresh food spoils quite quickly in the heat. So plan backup meals, if provisioning proves awkward. ( and high season availability of temporary berths , especially for cats is very difficult )

However often the larger and hence cheaper supermarkets , or even markets and food halls are some distance from anchorages and marinas , so some creative thinking is needed , taxis are expensive. Small closer supermarkets can be more expensive with limited range , try coming ashore where there are apartment complexes or larger conurbations. ( these often have quite good supermarkets buried in the complexes ) if you can carry and get ashore a small motorbike or even a bicycle, that would help.

Often anchoring , and rowing ashore to the local beach restaurant can prove very alluring , adjust your budget accordingly .( this used to be very cheap in Turkey , but not anymore I'm afraid )

Italy was about 80% of France, Greece was about 80 % of Italy, we found Croatia dearer then France. Spain is more of a mixed bag , some cheap some dear

Don't be afraid to try little small out of the way local restaurants and bars , we seek these out . You kiss a few frogs of course , but you do find a good few princesses !

Public transport in France is cheap , though intercity rail isn't , whereas it is in Italy , Greece is a mixed bag .( public transport isn't that good to begin with) , Spain was similar to Italy , with greater variability ( eating out was a bit dearer then France , unless one stuck to pizzas )

How much you spend will therefor be completely determined by marina costs , either a semi permanent berth or night to night ( that's if you can find a space !) , France and Italy can run to 100 euros a night or more depending , further east it gets a bit cheaper , and Greece has some low cost public quays. Spain, if slightly out of the way marinas , tends to have space , France is an utter nightmare for transient berths in high season.

After that , general living expenses, laundry etc are comparable with home.

Then you add boat running costs , chandlery in Europe runs about the same price as the UK, give or take , fuel in marinas can run to 2euros a litre in places !

To keep costs under control, in the Western med , be prepared to do a lot of anchoring out . So you need a self sufficient boat , and be comfortable with extended duration anchoring. ( watch the weather , for this get Navtex and a 3G dongle )

If only two people, at anchor , I rarely leave the boat unattended, so that tends to put the onus on provisioning on the other partner , and that was contentious ! , my hangup .

Dave
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Old 22-07-2013, 13:41   #5
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Re: Help estimating cost of European living estimates as live aboards.

If only two people, at anchor , I rarely leave the boat unattended, so that tends to put the onus on provisioning on the other partner , and that was contentious ! , my hangup .

Dave[/QUOTE]

Thanks for this great post Dave. Very useful info. We are thinking of cruising the Med and what you said about not leaving your boat unattended catch my attention. Because we are always doing that in the Caribbean. Can you explain?

Fair winds,
Marc
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Old 22-07-2013, 15:00   #6
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If only two people, at anchor , I rarely leave the boat unattended, so that tends to put the onus on provisioning on the other partner , and that was contentious ! , my hangup .

Dave
Thanks for this great post Dave. Very useful info. We are thinking of cruising the Med and what you said about not leaving your boat unattended catch my attention. Because we are always doing that in the Caribbean. Can you explain?

Fair winds,
Marc[/QUOTE]

Well as I said in general I'm not comfortable leaving the boat at anchor out of sight for long periods. Having said thT from time to time I have done it. It just my hangup , my leaves at lot of the shoreside chores to one or the other person.

Dave
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Old 22-07-2013, 15:33   #7
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Re: Help estimating cost of European living estimates as live aboards.

2016 is light years away and things may yet dramatically change. You are talking the Med. There are some countries with serious issues here.

Right now, in a place in Spain, ex-marina, life costs you exactly as much as you eat thru: we are fine with 300-400 a month (per a couple). Add your travel expenses (if you travel), comms (if you use paid comms), insurance (if you go insured), bars and restaurants (if you need them), etc. I believe many retired Westerners down here do with 1500 a month or thereabouts (per person).

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Old 22-07-2013, 15:42   #8
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2016 is light years away and things may yet dramatically change. You are talking the Med. There are some countries with serious issues here.


b.

I won't agree , if anything prices are going to fall back as disposable income shrinks. You could easily see deflation. The Euro remains strong and that's unlikely to change though the ECB would like to see it fall a bit more to stimulate exports.

Certain costs like fuel will continue to rise , in popular spots marina rates continue to rise, whereas in less popular spots there has been some softening of prices. Beer seems always get dearer , some changes in Common Agriculture Policy to reintroduce more price competition may see some foods getting cheaper, well see !

By 2016 its likely to be some economic recovery so you may see price increases and inflation on the back of that.

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Old 22-07-2013, 16:17   #9
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Re: Help estimating cost of European living estimates as live aboards.

One little cost saver tip: In Italy, any time that you sit at a table in a restaurant or cafe, you will be charged a "coperto". If you just want to grab a quick brioche & capuccio for breakfast, you can buy it while standing up at a coffee bar & not pay the coperto, which is often as much as an espresso & pastry combined. Most Italians on the run, going to work, will grab an espresso at the bar & avoid the extra charge for sitting.

Most Italians drink wine rather than beer, even the men. Wine is much more reasonably priced in Italy than beer is compared to most other places that I've been.

Essalunga was one of the supermarkets that seemed to have better value for money while still having high standards. They usually had a fairly good selection of prepared foods that were fresh & done in house. Opening hours were a bit short though.

Also, the Italian post office is usually the most cost effective place to exchange currency. They usually charge less than the bank for making the transaction.
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Old 22-07-2013, 16:34   #10
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One little cost saver tip: In Italy, any time that you sit at a table in a restaurant or cafe, you will be charged a "coperto". If you just want to grab a quick brioche & capuccio for breakfast, you can buy it while standing up at a coffee bar & not pay the coperto, which is often as much as an espresso & pastry combined. Most Italians on the run, going to work, will grab an espresso at the bar & avoid the extra charge for sitting.

Most Italians drink wine rather than beer, even the men. Wine is much more reasonably priced in Italy than beer is compared to most other places that I've been.

Essalunga was one of the supermarkets that seemed to have better value for money while still having high standards. They usually had a fairly good selection of prepared foods that were fresh & done in house. Opening hours were a bit short though.

Also, the Italian post office is usually the most cost effective place to exchange currency. They usually charge less than the bank for making the transaction.
And look out for Super U in the south of France , great value IMHO

Dave
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Old 23-07-2013, 15:53   #11
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Re: Help estimating cost of European living estimates as live aboards.

Do you have a current budget? Assuming, yes, I suggest making a copy and then modify the values based on your best guess adding items that would be new with cruising.

As you continue to do research, when you find new info, update your projected budget.

We are planning on shipping over late 2014 and have a projected buget of around $2500USD/month. Our situation is a little different as we plan to be motoring on the canal systems and we prefer docking so we can easily access the surrounding areas.

We have already done this process for the USA and have just updated based on info we've found on recent trips to Europe.
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Old 23-07-2013, 16:47   #12
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Re: Help estimating cost of European living estimates as live aboards.

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I won't agree (...)
And that's OK too as none of us knows the future and we can only guess and remember others are guessing too.

In any case, the South is in trouble, Greece went bankrupt and Spain and Portugal are on the edge.

Enjoy the sun and keep one eye the EU windex.

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Old 01-08-2013, 03:06   #13
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Re: Help estimating cost of European living estimates as live aboards.

liveaboard the actual cost?

The link above takes you to a thread which discusses the cost of living aboard in the Med.

We have been living on board and cruising the Med full time for 5 years. We have a small income which we manage with. We anchor year round. If we can offer any advice please get in touch.
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Old 01-08-2013, 03:09   #14
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Re: Help estimating cost of European living estimates as live aboards.

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And that's OK too as none of us knows the future and we can only guess and remember others are guessing too.

In any case, the South is in trouble, Greece went bankrupt and Spain and Portugal are on the edge.

Enjoy the sun and keep one eye the EU windex.

b.
Actually, Greece hasn't gone bankrupt. The country is still trying very hard to avoid that, with the help of the IMF and EU
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Old 01-08-2013, 07:00   #15
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And that's OK too as none of us knows the future and we can only guess and remember others are guessing too.

In any case, the South is in trouble, Greece went bankrupt and Spain and Portugal are on the edge.

Enjoy the sun and keep one eye the EU windex.

b.
Greece didnt go bankrupt. The EU is the largest and most powerful economic area on the world. It will not be allowed to fail.

Portugal is already improving , Spain has got a commitment to finance bank debt out of ecb funding rather them sovereign , so its ok.

None of these macro economic issues will affect the OP in any meaningful way.

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