Has Anyone Thought of Creating a Protected Marina in the Ocean?

[hpeer]

Re: Ethelpia.....Mussilini invaded Etheopia to get at their food excess. That was before the "Green Revolution" which caused a spike in population growth.

Wonderful book I recommend to all is "Taste of War". Foods role in WWII.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by sailingfarmer

Orville enrolled at Dayton Central High School. Never especially studious, Orville was more interested in hobbies outside the classroom than school, and, thusly, dropped out of high school during his senior year and opened a print shop. Having worked in a print shop over the summer, he quickly went to work designing his own printing press for the shop. In 1889, Orville began publishing the West Side News, a weekly West Dayton newspaper. Wilbur served as the paper's editor." ...Google search

I said he had a mechanical background (ie: ran a bike shop). I didn't say he was a good formal student.

But back to the point, so far no one has supplied a viable use case. With unlimited funding, sure it's technologically possible but completely unrealistic when you add in the financials.

[s/v Jedi]

Funny how 100nm territorial waters aren't challenged in this thread

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_waters

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Funny how 100nm territorial waters aren't challenged in this thread

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_waters

Unless you have a bigger warship, you are going to lose.

I think I correctly stated 200 mile economic exclusion zone a few pages back.

[TrentePieds]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Funny how 100nm territorial waters aren't challenged in this thread

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_waters

What's territorial waters got to do with it? Or with the price of tea in China? Anybody tried this, you'd see those guys in the fancy suits on the shores of the Potomac kick in the "doctrine" of "extraterritoriality" faster than you can say "democracy"

Don't take my word for it, but maybe talk to Spike Lee :-)!

TrentePieds

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Funny how 100nm territorial waters aren't challenged in this thread

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_waters

Good point. This would legally be classed as an artificial island and thus subject to the 200nm stricture of the exclusive economic zone. You are going to have to take this thing pretty far off shore to not need permission of the local government.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Stumble

Good point. This would legally be classed as an artificial island and thus subject to the 200nm stricture of the exclusive economic zone. You are going to have to take this thing pretty far off shore to not need permission of the local government.

That's a lot of material to export out of the country. They may still ask questions and throw up road blocks if you can't tell them which country you are exporting the materials to and their forms probably don't have export to international waters as an option.

[Stumble]

I am still waiting on someone to define the plan enough for it to matter. But the laws on exporting it aren't a huge issue really. If you have it built the local government probably won't care much where you take it to, just that it's taken from there.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Stumble

I am still waiting on someone to define the plan enough for it to matter. But the laws on exporting it aren't a huge issue really. If you have it built the local government probably won't care much where you take it to, just that it's taken from there.

On a small scale or exported to another country, I would agree.

If they decide you are trying to scam your way out of paying your taxes, expect them to make life difficult.

But yes, we really need a well defined use case to really show how bad of an idea it is. I suspect that's why it's been kept to vague ideas of "wouldn't if be nice" because once you start trying to fill in any details, it gets impractical really quick.

[first wind]

Originally Posted by Stumble

You are going to need to be at least 100nm to get outside the territorial waters of the countries there. So you will still need passports unless you are planning to land planes from the US.

To get that far out requires a deep water platform, which is grotesquely expensive. From an engineering standpoint possible, but where does the money come from?

Why don't you try the seasteading institute. There are a bunch of crackpots there trying to figure this out. For the last 10 years or so there has been a crowdfunded resource trying to get the details right. So far as I understand every one of their ideas so far has been decided to be too expensive, but feel free to propose something you think will work.

The reality is that anything that floats is expensive, and the larger you make it the more expensive it gets. To be large enough to house a reasonable number of people, act as a breakwater for a marina, and act as a stopping off point mid-ocean you need a massive structure. Which is necessarily far to expensive to make any economical sense.

I am not trying to be nasty, but you haven't started even the basics needed to design this thing. Where will it be, how far off shore, how self sustaining does it need to be, what's the budget for fuel, food, and supplies? How many days of self sufficiency, how large is the fuel pipeline to it. What about legal issues, most of what you are proposing ether requires the backing of a recognized country if near shore, or would be illegal if off shore.

Frankly nothing you have proposed makes any sense. And so far you have refused to even give enough specifics to make it an interesting mental exercise.

this may sound like an uninformed question,,,since it probably is...but, if something is off-shore and out of the legal jurisdiction of any nations, how can it be illegal, by whose standards, and who would be the party to enforce it? just curious because, i don't know. which is why most people ask questions, of course.

[GoingWalkabout]

Why not set up a non profit co-operative and buy an Island. Have enough people to start out with to make the Island purchase economical. Add boat berths as the community expands. Have on the Island a large solar array and sink a well for water. Set aside part of the Island for growing fruits and vegetables. I would set up green house tech like that used in Israel. Small area can produce a very large quantity of vegetables. Restrict the community to co-op boat owners and forbid condo and hotel development. Development of club house etc could be funded by fees charged to casual non-condo visitors.

Forget about the tax loopholes. Plenty of places to set up a company for that.

Have a condo-government body. Elect a mayor. After five years petition for self determination from onshore Government. Hold elections of a representative government and then announce succession from the on land government. Take your petition to the United Nations and after perhaps 10 or 20 years you may have your own independent country. Or at least autonomous self governed territory.

Even a small island could house 100's of boats.

OK. I'm done thinking outside the box. Time for a coffee.

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by first wind

this may sound like an uninformed question,,,since it probably is...but, if something is off-shore and out of the legal jurisdiction of any nations, how can it be illegal, by whose standards, and who would be the party to enforce it? just curious because, i don't know. which is why most people ask questions, of course.

Even if you are outside the economic zone of a country you are still subject to the laws of the country where the vessel is registered.

You could attempt to refuse registration, but then you will be treated as a 'stateless vessel'. Basically the stateless status means you have no rights under international law. It gets tricky since international maritime treaties assume registration, but basically the vessel and the people on board have no rights (arguably).

There are some law reviews articles on the issue including :

That Sinking Feeling: Stateless Ships, Universal Jurisdiction, and the Drug Trafficking Vessel Interdiction Act." Yale J. Int'l L. 37 (2012): 433]

And some others that deal primarily with drug runners.

The general thrust is that absent some special circumstances like a vessel that looses her flag due to failing an inspection, any country that chooses can exert its laws over any stateless ship it chooses. Not because it is necessarily legal, but because there is no one to complain to.

Generally in practice this isn't an issue since stateless vessels aren't terribly rare, but the first time you piss off a nation, expect to be arrested. So if all you are doing is picking your nose a few hundred miles off shore you are probably fine. But set up a tax haven, or start engaging in trade and you will have a massive issue.

[ryon]

Originally Posted by boatman61

So your the creator of the Pacific Trash Heap...

You could have visited the link and seen an actual floating island built from recycled plastic. But hey! Why waste a cheap shot?

[first wind]

Originally Posted by GoingWalkabout

Why not set up a non profit co-operative and buy an Island. Have enough people to start out with to make the Island purchase economical. Add boat berths as the community expands. Have on the Island a large solar array and sink a well for water. Set aside part of the Island for growing fruits and vegetables. I would set up green house tech like that used in Israel. Small area can produce a very large quantity of vegetables. Restrict the community to co-op boat owners and forbid condo and hotel development. Development of club house etc could be funded by fees charged to casual non-condo visitors.

Forget about the tax loopholes. Plenty of places to set up a company for that.

Have a condo-government body. Elect a mayor. After five years petition for self determination from onshore Government. Hold elections of a representative government and then announce succession from the on land government. Take your petition to the United Nations and after perhaps 10 or 20 years you may have your own independent country. Or at least autonomous self governed territory.

Even a small island could house 100's of boats.

OK. I'm done thinking outside the box. Time for a coffee.

that was an actual usable and doable idea. in fact, there was some tv show or youtube video someone was showing me about owning your own island. considering what you are buying, it's not as expensive as you might think.

[first wind]

Originally Posted by Stumble

Even if you are outside the economic zone of a country you are still subject to the laws of the country where the vessel is registered.

You could attempt to refuse registration, but then you will be treated as a 'stateless vessel'. Basically the stateless status means you have no rights under international law. It gets tricky since international maritime treaties assume registration, but basically the vessel and the people on board have no rights (arguably).

There are some law reviews articles on the issue including :

That Sinking Feeling: Stateless Ships, Universal Jurisdiction, and the Drug Trafficking Vessel Interdiction Act." Yale J. Int'l L. 37 (2012): 433]

And some others that deal primarily with drug runners.

The general thrust is that absent some special circumstances like a vessel that looses her flag due to failing an inspection, any country that chooses can exert its laws over any stateless ship it chooses. Not because it is necessarily legal, but because there is no one to complain to.

Generally in practice this isn't an issue since stateless vessels aren't terribly rare, but the first time you piss off a nation, expect to be arrested. So if all you are doing is picking your nose a few hundred miles off shore you are probably fine. But set up a tax haven, or start engaging in trade and you will have a massive issue.

i get you. so, it's not so much that it's illegal and legally enforceable. it's just that there is no protection from countries that wish to do the imperialist dance on your head. so, that's totally in agreement with what i had said earlier. basically, it's a bully planet. either you are big and powerful enough to defend yourself or you have to pay your protection money to a bully big enough to protect you from the other bullies.

that about sizes it up. you need to be the b#%$h of the biggest thug in the cell block to keep from being everyone else's b#%$h. ahhh civilization. i'm glad we have it.