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Old 13-09-2012, 10:55   #121
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Re: Has Anyone Ever had 2 Boats as Liveaboards???

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Hey Chris,
I'm confused. Your boat is NOT a trawler, correct? The photo doesn't look like one. But.... it sounds like you get trawler fuel economy???

Correct. Ours is what's called a "convertible" -- which sorta means sportfish but with features (The Admiral might prefer) for cruising

But nobody says you have to drive a faster boat fast all the time. Long discussion about how to properly treat diesel engine omitted here, but the short version is that as long as we get 'em to recommended operating temperature, and run 'em harder periodically, we can putz along at "trawler speeds" all we want. In our case, the hull form and potential discomfort in choppy seas at slow speeds, is more likely the driving factor for a given trip.

All that said, a 60-65' trawler with displacement hull -- and unlike ours, optimized for those speeds -- could very conceivably move along very comfortably at somewhere between 2-6 GPH, depending.

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Old 13-09-2012, 10:56   #122
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Re: Has Anyone Ever had 2 Boats as Liveaboards???

I kind of like the idea of a reasonable size powerboat for living and smaller sailboat for fun and to house the kids. My experience is that maintenance on a boat around 40' is way less than half the maintenance on a house. But renting a house may be the way to go especially if it had a dock.
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Old 13-09-2012, 10:57   #123
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Re: Has Anyone Ever had 2 Boats as Liveaboards???

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Check with US Power Squadrons. They might offer something. I've also found that just talking with other owners at the docks will provide you with a wealth of information.
Will try both, thnx
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Old 13-09-2012, 11:02   #124
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Re: Has Anyone Ever had 2 Boats as Liveaboards???

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I kind of like the idea of a reasonable size powerboat for living and smaller sailboat for fun and to house the kids. My experience is that maintenance on a boat around 40' is way less than half the maintenance on a house. But renting a house may be the way to go especially if it had a dock.
Oh, no!!!!... Can't go back there... It took these guys days to talk me out of the 2 boats, I thought it was an awesome idea!!! But... after so many experienced folks saying otherwise, I should probably leave it alone.

I LOVE that you think maintenance isn't that bad
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Old 13-09-2012, 11:03   #125
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Re: Has Anyone Ever had 2 Boats as Liveaboards???

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So....is it that when you travel slowly you get trawler type economy, but still have the option to go fast when you want, which a trawler would not allow. If that's the case, then why would folks get trawlers if motor yachts get the same economy at slower speeds...I'm so confused???

Ref speeds, yep.

There are motor yachts, and then there are motor yachts.

Some have planing hulls like ours (using a brand I'm familiar with: Silverton 43 MY, Silverton 453) and they're in the same boat I'm in, so to speak.

But some have semi-displacement hulls with keels (I think the older Hatteras 53s, 58s, etc., and the Flemings) and are NOT meant to be driven at high velocity. The hull forms here can be much more comfortable in choppy seas, even beam seas sometimes, but in any case they'd be closer to trawler-like performance.

For that matter, there are trawlers, and then there are trawlers

Some have round bilge full-displacement hulls and single engines, some had "square" bilges and semi-displacement hulls and two engines... and various versions exist in between. Pros and cons to each. I suspect you'll probably need to focus on staterooms first, then evaluate pros and cons of hull forms and propulsion options once you have some candidates.

-Chris
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Old 13-09-2012, 11:09   #126
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Re: Has Anyone Ever had 2 Boats as Liveaboards???

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I'd have to disagree with your description here. In first place you should not be trying to 'parallel park' any boat. Generally you bring the bow in first, toss a spring line, and make use of a spring line (not bow line) to come further up to the dock.

Single engined boats (power or sail) are a lot tougher to master due to prop rotation direction compared to direction you wish to place the stern. BTW, never tie down the stern of a vessel until the very last line.

Catamarans and big powerboats with twin engines are the easist to master. They have twin props that are separated far apart. You can put one side in forward, and one side in reverse, thus spin the boat in its own length. In general this high manuerabilty will get you though lots of situations other than strong currents and higher breezes on your beam. that requires more practice.

You will be a little intimindated at first with a large boat in relatively small spaces, but with a little practice, and knowledge of how your particular vessel reacts, you become more comfortable in a short time.....particularly with a twin screw vessel.
Good to know that big powerboats are easier than small ones. That's interesting.
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Old 13-09-2012, 11:13   #127
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Re: Has Anyone Ever had 2 Boats as Liveaboards???

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I'd have to disagree with your description here. In first place you should not be trying to 'parallel park' any boat. Generally you bring the bow in first, toss a spring line, and make use of a spring line (not bow line) to come further up to the dock.

Single engined boats (power or sail) are a lot tougher to master due to prop rotation direction compared to direction you wish to place the stern. BTW, never tie down the stern of a vessel until the very last line.

Catamarans and big powerboats with twin engines are the easist to master. They have twin props that are separated far apart. You can put one side in forward, and one side in reverse, thus spin the boat in its own length. In general this high manuerabilty will get you though lots of situations other than strong currents and higher breezes on your beam. that requires more practice.

You will be a little intimindated at first with a large boat in relatively small spaces, but with a little practice, and knowledge of how your particular vessel reacts, you become more comfortable in a short time.....particularly with a twin screw vessel.

I'd only add that sometimes bow-in first works, sometimes not so much depending on boat and/or slip. If we dock in a 4-way tie up with short finger piers, there's no way to get off our boat over the bow. Too high, too far away from the finger pier (usually the stern is captured by the outside piles, so bow can't be angled too much toward the fingers), etc. Certainly the First Mutt will be stranded.

OTOH, using spring lines is right on the mark. For GG's benefit, Chapman's Piloting covers the topic in depth (as would other material), but the general idea on a side tie-up is to approach into the wind or current, crew or dockhand attaches a forward spring line to a pile or cleat roughly near the bow of the boat, crew makes that line fast on a cleat on the boat roughly just ahead of mid-ships... and wind or current (or engine in reverse) will warp the whole boat up next to the dock as if by magic. Bow lines and stern lines (sorta) at your leisure. And in fact, that's pretty much the boating equivalent of parallel parking :>)

Lots of variations on that theme, of course, including doing it almost exactly the opposite direction... so that's just one example...

-Chris
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Old 13-09-2012, 11:16   #128
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Re: 80' Powercat

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This would make a great liveboard vessel, but maybe just a bit too much boat for your beginning? ....5 staterooms though...

Song Saigon
SONG SAIGON Boat for sale
Well, I have to admit that I have been put off by power Cats because the interiors didn't seem homey enough for me compared to the Trawlers, but this is actually quite nice, and, 5 cabins is awesome. The only problem is price. I don't know what the price of this is (couldn't find it), but it's an 08', so I'm guessing it's probably out of my price range.
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Old 17-09-2012, 05:23   #129
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Re: 80' Powercat

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Well, I have to admit that I have been put off by power Cats because the interiors didn't seem homey enough for me compared to the Trawlers, but this is actually quite nice, and, 5 cabins is awesome. The only problem is price. I don't know what the price of this is (couldn't find it), but it's an 08', so I'm guessing it's probably out of my price range.
Sorry, been down with a flu and no internet service (faulty modem) for 4 days now (visiting Thailand).

I had a price on her that was very reasonable about a year ago, and I know it was reduced again. I'll find out for you.
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Old 17-09-2012, 14:52   #130
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Re: Has Anyone Ever had 2 Boats as Liveaboards???

The problem of learning how to do maintenance is still bothering me some. A lot of the skills needed are similar to automotive and truck repair, how to use wrenches, bearing pullers, slide hammers, electrical problems, hydraulics, engine trouble shooting, fuel systems. I think you might get better training in an automotive setting. Many boat yards do not pay enough to get really good mechanics.
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Old 17-09-2012, 18:12   #131
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Re: Has Anyone Ever had 2 Boats as Liveaboards???

I am in the process of moving aboard in the coming weeks. I can't speak from experience living aboard, but I can share with you some of the things that have helped me in narrowing in on the right boat and marina in the land-to-water transition. This doesn't address your specific "two boats" question, (which it seems you have logically solved already), but I thought some of this information *might* be helpful as you embark on this journey.

First, I highly recommend the book The Essentials of Living Aboard a Boat. I already knew a lot of considerations covered there, but there were many I did not know enough about (e.g., living aboard in winter since my boating experience has been in Florida). The author is a lawyer who lived aboard for years right in Boston harbor. There are many other more technical books (great recommendations earlier in the thread), but this will be easier to bite off for someone with limited experience IMO. Also, I watched all the videos on his website Living Aboard | The Essentials of Living Aboard a Boat by Mark Nicholas | Living Aboard.net

Second, start getting to know your "inner boater" in terms of whether you are a power boater or a sailor; I don't think you have to draw a line in the sand, but understanding the very real differences between the two can help guide your shopping. (If the trip itself is the journey, I'd think sail; if you want to get to where you're going, drop anchor, and have a cocktail, I'd think power. A gross generalization, but you get the idea.) Although I am actually now trying to close on a sailboat, overall power boats fit my "vision" of boating (aft deck and a rum runner) and for a liveaboard often offer much more liveable space for the LOA.

Third, start shopping for marinas! You are probably going to be in a 60' slip or a bulkhead, but for me, going from a 28' boat to a 34' boat to a 37' boat can mean a couple thousands dollars more in dockage per year. Also, you tend to get what you pay for. Want to be walking distance to nightlife and public transit--that marina will cost more. Want clean or luxurious facilities--visit every marina and look at them. As a gal, it was important to me that the shower is not a stall in a locker room environment; I want an individually locking shower/head/vanity unit for privacy and safety. Especially with a bunch of teens, I wouldn't plan on them using the heads aboard except as truly necessary--you'll be pumping out every other day and you may not have enough hot water to get through all those showers. As a liveaboard friend advised--think of it as college dorm life and take your bathroom kit down the hall to the bathhouse, and let the marina provide the hot water and cleaning service! Find out where your slip would be for the size boats you're looking at--a long, icy dock to the bulkhead with all your groceries in the snow isn't the romantic liveaboard image most folks conjure up. Bottom line: if you are not a cruising liveaboard then your marina is your extended living room, yard, laundry room, and bathroom--get the most out of it that you can for your money.

Fourth, as you will not be full-time cruising right away and will need to learn to handle the boat (ditto for me on both), focus first on getting your new "house" right. By that I mean things like laundry (coin-op laundromat? marina laundry room?), shower/head issues, does the marina have cable TV, is there wifi, what are the pump-out and winter water arrangements. I have taken the view that if I feel like I am camping living aboard will be short-lived indeed. We all have different thresholds as to creature comforts--climb around on a bunch of different boats of different makes, models, and sizes and do some soul-searching with your kids about what really will or will not work. You might find that CaptForce's cabin-divider scheme will actually work, especially if you settle on a marina with a lounge/rec room where the liveaboards can stretch their legs and the kids then have a place to chill out when they are too close for comfort.

Fifth, even if you can't drive the boat right away, get your whole brood very boating-safety-minded. Though you might not be getting away from the dock right away it sounds like you certainly have the determination and smarts to figure out driving the boat, learning the systems, etc. (Know that there is at least one other person out there bucking the naysayers!) But even dock-bound, safety is critical. If your boat catches fire or starts sinking, it is a much more imminent emergency than in a land-based house. Know where every seacock is in case the boat is taking on water; train all the kids on emergency procedures and radio use; etc. You have a much larger budget than I do and can likely hire more folks to do routine maintenance, but at 3AM with an emergency, I think the majority of boaters have to rely on the wits of captain and crew. (I hope my cats can handle the lines or a mayday call; I made the dog the Chief Safety Officer in the event of a Cat-Over-Board incident).

Sorry for the lengthy post and apologies if this went too far off-topic.
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Old 18-09-2012, 06:23   #132
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Re: Has Anyone Ever had 2 Boats as Liveaboards???

Nice post, RR.

Which marina(s) in Annapolis are you homing in on? And how do they solve that whole wintertime water/pump-out thing? (I've just heard third-hand from unqualified sources that the Harbormaster's pump-out boat operates year round...)

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Old 18-09-2012, 06:49   #133
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Re: Has Anyone Ever had 2 Boats as Liveaboards???

Thanks, Chris. I'm leaning toward either Annapolis Landing (the most dog-friendly and most upscale facilities IMO, with the price to match) or Horn Point (very few amenities, but walking distance to everything in Eastport and downtown, so priced for location). I eliminated from consideration spots that just seemed dog-unfriendly, icky, or lacked a cable TV hook-up (life with no football or Showtime, I don't think so!). The decision may tip one way or the other based on LOA, as I was looking at a bigger slip at one in order to get two shore power lines--so might as well put as much boat in there as I can.

As for winter water, some marinas weight down the water lines in winter and sink them so they don't freeze. You go to the spot it's sunk on the dock, pull it up, hook up to fill your tank, then re-sink the line. I will feel better about how it works once I've actually seen it done. Other spots all the liveaboards get together on say, Saturday afternoon, hook all their hoses together, and go around filling everyone's tanks; what it lacks in elegance perhaps it makes up for in camaraderie. Some marinas just don't offer winter water at all, and aren't likely to have (m)any liveaboards.

I have heard the harbormaster's pump-out boat doesn't operate in winter, but I'd have to call them to confirm. Some marinas will pump you out at the fuel dock but you have to get to it. Others have a cart to bring the hose connection down the dock to your boat. In general, it sounds like pump-out is free at the dock, $5 via harbormaster's boat, and $10 or so if the marina has to come to your slip with a cart. It's a nice aspiration to only use on-shore facilities to avoid the pump-out hassles and expense, but if it's snowing, blowing, and 20 degrees out, I'm not sure I'm running down the dock after every couple beers.
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Old 18-09-2012, 07:07   #134
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Re: Has Anyone Ever had 2 Boats as Liveaboards???

It's a boat that floats, I hope it can also go. Why would you stay in a place that freezes in the winter on a boat? Doesn't sound that dreamy to me. I understand that making a living is a factor, but if that is the reason for being somewhere that is cold in the winter, I would live on land at least during the coldest months.
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Old 18-09-2012, 07:13   #135
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Re: Has Anyone Ever had 2 Boats as Liveaboards???

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Thanks, Chris. I'm leaning toward either Annapolis Landing (the most dog-friendly and most upscale facilities IMO, with the price to match) or Horn Point (very few amenities, but walking distance to everything in Eastport and downtown, so priced for location). I eliminated from consideration spots that just seemed dog-unfriendly, icky, or lacked a cable TV hook-up (life with no football or Showtime, I don't think so!). The decision may tip one way or the other based on LOA, as I was looking at a bigger slip at one in order to get two shore power lines--so might as well put as much boat in there as I can.

As for winter water, some marinas weight down the water lines in winter and sink them so they don't freeze. You go to the spot it's sunk on the dock, pull it up, hook up to fill your tank, then re-sink the line. I will feel better about how it works once I've actually seen it done. Other spots all the liveaboards get together on say, Saturday afternoon, hook all their hoses together, and go around filling everyone's tanks; what it lacks in elegance perhaps it makes up for in camaraderie. Some marinas just don't offer winter water at all, and aren't likely to have (m)any liveaboards.

I have heard the harbormaster's pump-out boat doesn't operate in winter, but I'd have to call them to confirm. Some marinas will pump you out at the fuel dock but you have to get to it. Others have a cart to bring the hose connection down the dock to your boat. In general, it sounds like pump-out is free at the dock, $5 via harbormaster's boat, and $10 or so if the marina has to come to your slip with a cart. It's a nice aspiration to only use on-shore facilities to avoid the pump-out hassles and expense, but if it's snowing, blowing, and 20 degrees out, I'm not sure I'm running down the dock after every couple beers.



With apologies for thread drift (but focused on critical obstacles in freezing waters, so OP can feel our pain too )...

We've stayed -- with the First Mutt -- at Annapolis Landing (and have at least one of our Owner's Club members there now) as well as Horn Point (windy) and also FWIW Eastport Yacht Center (less windy, beautiful bath house, "easier" side of Back Creek). I wasn't aware that any of those could do "in slip" pump-outs, but that'd be very, very worthwhile knowing.

Our own marina just can't do winter water on the docks due to unprotected lines and freezing, although they do keep a spigot accessible up near the service buildings. That said, I'm not schlepping 200 gallons of water via jerry cans down a slippery dock once every week or so. They can't do pump-out from the fuel dock for the same reason (and if engines are winterized, I couldn't get there from here anyway), and they have no cart solution. Nonetheless, I just heard on Sunday that one of our neighbor slipholders will try to liveaboard in the marina this winter... temporarily moving up to a slip the main bulkhead to be closer to the water source... but I didn't hear their pump-out solution yet.

The TV seems easier; some of our neighbors simply installed their own dish. Given the available Wi-Fi network in Annapolis and various particular needs, that could be enough (for some) for Internet services without physical cable access.

As you continue to examine the issues, I'd be interested in hearing further info...

BTW, during our "Snow-mageddon" event a couple winters ago, I had to shovel about 4' of snow out of the cockpit, and in other winters, shoveling snow out the boat once or twice per year has been typical. Speaks to Rocketman's comment... not dreamy at all...

Regards, -Chris
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