Gun Question, part 2

[captain58sailin]

The posts that are aimed at particular posters will get the thread shut down quickly. Name calling doesn't address the issue or the ongoing discussion. And you will give the moderators a headache.
As far as breaking the laws in any country, you pays your money, you takes your chances.

[atoll]

Originally Posted by Parmenter

Until you're not.

I wonder if any of the powers that be that you think are so easily corruptible are reading?
If they are they may be thinking now that they know who you are that they can have a welcoming party waiting for you when you make the next declaration that you have no guns and then go shooting up the anchorage at sunset.
You might need to start carrying more money.

sorry for the thread drift,but when you have been to half as many of the dodgy out of the way places,that i have,or sailed a quarter of nearly 3 circumnavigations,you will begin to realise that life is just a calculated risk.

most of the over 100,000 miles i have sailed has been with fairly large crews of up to 12 people onboard,this does not make one above the law,but it does earn you immediate respect from officials when they open your passport filled to bursting with stamps,and process your crew.

i generally do declare weapons in most places if i am staying for any lenth of time,and generally it is not seen as a big deal in the majority of countries.,most places they don't even count the ammunition before sealing the fire arms back on board.

currently i don't have any firearms as i am now mostly based in the uk,but if i do another circumnavigation ,picking up a shotgun ,bought over the counter for export requires no licence as part of the ships equipment.

my advice get out there and live a little,and you will no longer see the world in black and white.......it is wonderful in colour....and a very forgiving place!

[Joe from ny]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Tipping is just another form of corruption but one apparently not only tolerated in the USA but actually encouraged yet a dim view is taken on other forms of corruption.

If it is corruption in the USA, it is institutionalized, state-supported corruption. food servers are allowed to be paid far below the minimum wage because it is expected that when you consider their tips, the wages will be at or above the minimum wage.

[Joe from ny]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I never understand why certain people, when others state they don't want to guns to defend themselves or carry them in case they hurt someone , have to be characterised as " abhorring " guns. I certainly don't. I was taught to fire a gun from age 7, But I don't see them as practical on a modern sailing boat for several reasons.

I never said you personally abhor guns, i just implied that England has passed laws, presumably with the concurrence of its population, that made handguns almost non-existent among the population.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Nor would I agree "The vast majority of people in the country i am located in dont share that same aversion to such tools" with that statement. There is significant gun control in the US in many states and in many more a desire to enact tougher laws that often fall foul of the partisan divide.

Every year, most states see an increase in concealed carry permit applications. In the sales of firearms, the market share of pocket pistols in .380 and 9MM is at an all-time high.

According to a Gallup pole;
Americans Broadly Oppose Banning Handguns
The new poll also finds public opposition to banning handgun ownership holding at a record-high 74%, identical to a year ago... Numerous mass shootings have occurred in the U.S. in the past decade. However, during this time, aside from the passing surge of support for stricter gun laws after the Newtown shootings, Americans' support for gun control has tapered.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

As to the flame thrower idea, you can't be serious. I want to sail out of a country not spend the rest of my life in its jail.

I too, would like to sail out of a country, rather than have my body be flown out in a shipping crate in the cargo hold of a plane.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Do you not understand the basic idea , kill someone in a foreign land and there's a good chance you'll rot in jail, especially if there was any form of premeditation. ( like man traps or flame throwers lol)

Rather, i believe you don't get it, because it is better to kill someone who is trying to kill you, and then live on to see another day.

[Joe from ny]

Originally Posted by LakeSuperior

The 19 y/o on his front porch pounding on the door at 3:00 AM was 3X the legal alcohol limit drunk. That said the shooter is being charged with 2nd degree murder. Also, see the last paragraph below!


Back on topic of actually using a gun to prevent horror: from Gun Owners of America https://www.gunowners.org/sk0802htm.htm

* Guns used 2.5 million times a year in self-defense. Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year -- or about 6,850 times a day. [1] This means that each year, firearms are used more than 80 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives. [2]

* Of the 2.5 million times citizens use their guns to defend themselves every year, the overwhelming majority merely brandish their gun or fire a warning shot to scare off their attackers. Less than 8% of the time, a citizen will kill or wound his/her attacker.[3]

* As many as 200,000 women use a gun every year to defend themselves against sexual abuse.[4]

* Even anti-gun Clinton researchers concede that guns are used 1.5 million times annually for self-defense. According to the Clinton Justice Department, there are as many as 1.5 million cases of self-defense every year. The National Institute of Justice published this figure in 1997 as part of "Guns in America" -- a study which was authored by noted anti-gun criminologists Philip Cook and Jens Ludwig.[5]

* Armed citizens kill more crooks than do the police. Citizens shoot and kill at least twice as many criminals as police do every year (1,527 to 606).[6] And readers of Newsweek learned that "only 2 percent of civilian shootings involved an innocent person mistakenly identified as a criminal. The 'error rate' for the police, however, was 11 percent, more than five times as high."[7]

THE POST YOU RESPONDED TO IS NOT MY QUOTE, SOMEBODY DOESN'T KNOW HOW TO USE THE QUOTE BUTTON. Boatguy30 has extraneous data in his post.

[Joe from ny]

Originally Posted by LakeSuperior

Joe - the incidence of violent crime in Europe is twice that of the United States. I don't think we are exporting anything anywhere.

Why would any person be against self defense? Are we supposed to be sheep?

THE POST YOU RESPONDED TO IS NOT MY QUOTE, SOMEBODY DOESN'T KNOW HOW TO USE THE QUOTE BUTTON.

[Don1500]

Being the OP I feel it is my right to say that I opened this thread to discuss other peoples experience in using a firearm to protect themselves while on a boat. I did not open yet another thread to discuss the current gun laws or any other countries laws. I did not start it to hear, yet again, about misinterpretation of said laws, statistics on how many (or how few) times people had their guns taken away and used on them, or any other gunphobic topic (That includes tipping). If you want to talk about that go start your own thread, don't hijack yet another thread. I didn't want to hijack the other thread so I started this one, give me the courtesy of doing the same.

[Andrew B.]

Well said, and thanks as I was about to give a history lesson on gratuities(tips).

Originally Posted by Don1500

Being the OP I feel it is my right to say that I opened this thread to discuss other peoples experience in using a firearm to protect themselves while on a boat. I did not open yet another thread to discuss the current gun laws or any other countries laws. I did not start it to hear, yet again, about misinterpretation of said laws, statistics on how many (or how few) times people had their guns taken away and used on them, or any other gunphobic topic (That includes tipping). If you want to talk about that go start your own thread, don't hijack yet another thread. I didn't want to hijack the other thread so I started this one, give me the courtesy of doing the same.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Joe from ny

I never said you personally abhor guns, i just implied that England has passed laws, presumably with the concurrence of its population, that made handguns almost non-existent among the population.

Yes indeed it did , primarily due to the massive public reaction to the Dunblane tragedy. Its quite understandable to see why. Given the small numbers of guns it affected , it was not a big loss as you cannot get a firearm in the UK for personal defence ( in general) so the only group that got affected where a small group of target shooters.

IN reality little changed, you can still quite happily take a long firearm aboard a ship , in fact without a license. But the fact remains that this type of debate amongst UK boaters would be regarded as ridiculous , even though everyone of them could in fact carry some form of firearm if they wanted to.

I too, would like to sail out of a country, rather than have my body be flown out in a shipping crate in the cargo hold of a plane.

Rather, i believe you don't get it, because it is better to kill someone who is trying to kill you, and then live on to see another day.

The sad thing about pro gun advocates ( and I mean those advocating guns for defence, not just "having" guns) is the persistent need to describe the world as a dangerous place and every encounter a deadly one.

In reality most if not all encounters on board a boat are benign, even where petty theft is involved. Adding a gun to that mix then takes everything up a notch. I personally don't agree with it, but please note "personally" YMMV

dave

[Joe from ny]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The sad thing about pro gun advocates ( and I mean those advocating guns for defence, not just "having" guns) is the persistent need to describe the world as a dangerous place and every encounter a deadly one.

But the reality is that the reason to be armed aboard is the same reason you have insurance. just in case of the very small improbable, unlikely event that you might someday need it. I happily carry insurance, praying that i never need it, the same goes for carrying my gun.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

In reality most if not all encounters on board a boat are benign, even where petty theft is involved. Adding a gun to that mix then takes everything up a notch. I personally don't agree with it, but please note "personally" YMMV

dave

That is why i gave my philosophy on experiencing a petty theft incident while armed, "just let it go, let them take the stuff".

My reference to the way you spell defense earlier was a nod to the fact that you are likely from the UK, hence your amazement at the topic is even discussed at all. Our country is far less phobic about certain tools used to maintain freedom, as we used guns to get out from under the boot of our colonial oppressors (which was, coincidentally enough, your country )

[johnmcntsh]

[QUOTE=LakeSuperior;1400423]The 19 y/o on his front porch pounding on the door at 3:00 AM was 3X the legal alcohol limit drunk. That said the shooter is being charged with 2nd degree murder. Also, see the last paragraph below!


Back on topic of actually using a gun to prevent horror: from Gun Owners of America https://www.gunowners.org/sk0802htm.htm


I disagree, Please take a moment and look up the statistics http://www.vpc.org/studies/justifiable.pdf..

An Analysis of Federal Bureau of Investigation and
National Crime Victimization Survey Data

[Hud3]

Originally Posted by Don1500

Being the OP I feel it is my right to say that I opened this thread to discuss other peoples experience in using a firearm to protect themselves while on a boat. I did not open yet another thread to discuss the current gun laws or any other countries laws. I did not start it to hear, yet again, about misinterpretation of said laws, statistics on how many (or how few) times people had their guns taken away and used on them, or any other gunphobic topic (That includes tipping). If you want to talk about that go start your own thread, don't hijack yet another thread. I didn't want to hijack the other thread so I started this one, give me the courtesy of doing the same.

Don, say it again, but louder this time. I don't think they heard you.

Interesting that of all these posts, not a single one has answered your original question.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Joe from ny

But the reality is that the reason to be armed aboard is the same reason you have insurance. just in case of the very small improbable, unlikely event that you might someday need it. I happily carry insurance, praying that i never need it, the same goes for carrying my gun.



That is why i gave my philosophy on experiencing a petty theft incident while armed, "just let it go, let them take the stuff".

We can debate this forever. But I don't think guns can be equated with insurance. Insurance, does not attempt to stop an event, it merely compensates you for the difficulty that event caused.

Guns are not insurance, they are an extension of personal force, and should be treated that way. questions should be is such force acceptable , is it justified and I prepared to maim or kill to protect things that I value etc etc.

I agree with your last line,

dave

[Joe from ny]

I must say that having to click a box agreeing that i have read some weird disclaimer before i post is getting a bit old. Cant the forum software be setup so that we can click and acknowledge it only once per thread? If i knew it yeaterday, i still know it today.

/end rant.

That being said, my disclaimer relating to my posts: The responsible use of guns is ingrained in my head maybe more so than in some other people's. My years of training and experience make me realize it is truly to be used as a last resort, only before certain severe injury or death is about to be inflicted, and there is no means to retreat. I am aware that others might not share my restraint. My seemingly pro-gun position has been arrived at with the above philosophy being an ever-present controlling consideration.

[Joe from ny]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

We can debate this forever. But I don't think guns can be equated with insurance. Insurance, does not attempt to stop an event, it merely compensates you for the difficulty that event caused.

Guns are not insurance, they are an extension of personal force, and should be treated that way. questions should be is such force acceptable , is it justified and I prepared to maim or kill to protect things that I value etc etc.

I agree with your last line,

dave

I am not equating them, i am saying that i have them with the same mindset regarding their use. I do not recklessly smash into a barge, thinking that i have insurance, etc..., likewise i would not intentionally get into dangerous situations with a high probably of danger from predatory humans just because i might be armed. Avoid problems with all due diligence, but for the extremely unexpected, unforeseen situation which might arise, be prepared to do all you can, and have the proper tools available, to try to ensure a successful outcome..