Guests share expenses

[Paul Annapolis]

As is often the case here and on other online forums, a lot of advice and opinions are offered, but if the OP and responders were to go directly to the source or authority a lot of wasted time and misunderstanding could be averted. There are definite legal rulings about what constitutes carrying a passenger for hire. There are many good and authoritative sources but one may begin here : http://www.uscg.mil/pvs/docs/PVSA_NVIC_7-94.pdf

[monte]

Paul that's 38 pages of irrelevant information to the OPs question as far as I can see. What was it specifically you were intending to clarify with that post?

[Paul Annapolis]

Monte--Your fellow moderator Hudson Force responded as the first commenter with some very good points which then helped this thread take a turn--which I thought was very relevant. I continued with that thread of relevancy. I was trying to be helpful but for some reason you must have gone through all 38 pages rather quickly and apparently determined otherwise. The issue is what legally constitutes carrying a passenger for hire. If there is an expectation of or an actual contribution toward the voyage or the operation of the vessel, the Coast Guard may deem it as such. I was only suggesting that the OP and other interested parties look to an official document from the USCG for guidance. I was trying to help. Apparently you felt otherwise. However if you look at page 22-23 of the document (32 of the pdf) under section 506 you'll see that:

passenger for hire’ means a passenger for whom consideration is contributed as a
condition
of
carriage on the vessel, whether directly or indirectly flowing to the owner,
charterer, operator, agent, or any other person having an interest in the vessel.
‘I.
DESCRIPTION
-
The determination of what constitutes the carriage of a “passenger for hire” must be
made on a case by case basis. This determination is dependent upon the actual operation of a vessel and
the flow of consideration as determined by the facts of each case. In general, there needs to be some form
of tangible consideration or promise of performance being passed for a “passenger for hire” situation to exist...."

ANDSEC. 507. CONSIDERATION.
Section 2101
of
title 46, United States Code, is amended by inserting between paragraphs (5)
and (6) a new paragraph (5a) to read as follows:
‘(5a)
‘consideration’ means an economic benefit, inducement, right, or
profit including pecuniary payment accruing to an individual, person, or entity, but not including a voluntary sharing of
the actual expenses
of
the voyage, by monetary contribution or donation
offuel,
food,
beverage, or other supplies.
“.
DESCRIPTION
-
Section 507 amends 46 U.S.C. 2101 by adding a definition of the term
“consideration.” Although this term was used in the prior definition of a “passenger,” it was not
previously defined by statute. Generally, some tangible amount of worth exchanged for carriage on a
vessel such as payment, exchange of goods or a promise of performance is required. “Consideration”
does not include a voluntary sharing of the actual expenses of a voyage. Additionally, employees or
business clients that have not contributed for their carriage, and are carried for morale or entertainment
purposes is not included as exchange of consideration."

Again, I was trying to help because in certain cases, as described above, having a guest contribute toward the expenses of the voyage may be considered carrying passengers for hire and as such could cause the owner of the boat some potentially serious consequences.

I hope you will now see why this may be very relevant tot the OP's questions and the followup comments, including those offered by your fellow moderator. Thanks!

[monte]

Thanks Paul. I did read through it and even the condensed version you offered makes little sense to a layman like myself. Hudsons post was quite easy to understand so I appreciate the clarification. I'm not sure a USCG document is relevant to the OP in the BVIs but I guess the key is to find out how local laws might effect taking crew or passengers on board and how to fairly share costs without stepping on any official toes..

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Paul Annapolis

passenger for hire’ means a passenger for whom consideration is contributed as a
condition
of
carriage on the vessel, whether directly or indirectly flowing to the owner,
charterer, operator, agent, or any other person having an interest in the vessel.

The key issue here has always been:

"passenger for hire’ means a passenger for whom consideration is contributed as acondition of carriage on the vessel,

If your friends or guests are buying you a beer or lunch or dinner, most everyone has always agreed that it NOT a condition REQUIRED for their passage.

If the CG boarded every boat sailing around here (or anywhere for that matter) to check if someone bought the skipper a beer or a sandwich, things would be quite crazy, even crazier than the unnecessary boardings that thankfully stopped a decade ago.

Let's get real: folks visit and are guests on our boats. They volunteer "supplies" NOT " as acondition but rather for being nice to the skipper who has them as guests.

The skipper does not require "renumeration" and, therefore, this is a useless, well, uhm, condition.

It's fine to make the OP aware of this, but it is not generally an issue in recreational boating. It simply doesn't apply based on his question.

The intention of the rule was to stop folks taking people out whho paid but the skipper wasn't qualified to do so, basically. Others will chime in about the details.

[Paul Annapolis]

Stu is correct and I agree, but the issue is still of potential importance and remains relevant. I see people offering a cruise on their boat as a charitable event for which people bid or made donations and it's a real and potentially serious concern. If there were no legal or insurance or regulatory or liability or other such related issue, I do know why it's anyone's concern what a person brings along as a guest on boat.

[Paul Annapolis]

In re-reading the OP's question, it really seems as if he is carrying passengers for hire, and as for it being the BVI's, I don't know what the rules and laws there may say BUT look at what the OP Wrote: "Not looking to make a profit, just cove the added expense. How do others go about this? Something up front, contribute to a "Kitty" ?etc?" He seems to be making some "contribution" a requisite for passage, for coming aboard. SO I would strongly suggest that the OP consider this--and also consider how he might be seen by others as competing with them but without the requisite certificates, or licenses or inspections and either way, if a "guest" were injured and the insurance company deemed the person was not really a guest but was a passenger--well remember that insurance companies are in the business of not paying and might have a case that the boat was being operated as a charter, and perhaps therefore not legally and coverage might be voided. We live in a litigious and regulated society--and the British system (as in BVI's), perhaps even more so.

[FamilyVan]

I think the op is just cheap. I charge $500+ per day as crew plus expenses.

Sent from my SGH-I547C using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[monte]

Thanks Paul. Good points on all of the issues that might face them and all of us if something goes wrong when taking guests or crew on board. It seems like a potential legal minefield. What happens if:
The boat is damaged and the insurance company deems you were chartering and your cover doesn't cover that
A guest is damaged and insurance won't cover them as normal crew
A charter company feels you are taking their business and feels compelled to mention it to the local authorities
A damaged guests family seeks compensation
Etc etc..

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by mayacove

My wife and I are live aboard our Cruising Cat. A lot of friends and acquaintances want to come down for a week or two. In the past when we had a smaller boat, we simply paid for the expenses and were happy when people asked to chip in. Now we have the space for 6 or more people and Re thinking of how to have them visit, but contribute to the food, moorings, diesel, water etc. Not looking to make a profit, just cove the added expense. How do others go about this? Something up front, contribute to a "Kitty" ?etc?

Paul & Monte,

This is the OP. I simply don't see what you've mentioned, although what you say is certainly true.

But this says: friends and acquaintances

Where do you see ",,,it really seems as if he is carrying passengers for hire..."?

[monte]

Stu I don't see that he is carrying passengers for hire, but I guess the question is how do authorities, insurance companies and courts see it. From the example above it would seem any contribution toward fuel, food and expenses might be judged as a paying passenger by the USCG? Or perhaps I'm reading that backwards and those contributions are allowed?

[Cylinder]

Originally Posted by monte

Stu I don't see that he is carrying passengers for hire, but I guess the question is how do authorities, insurance companies and courts see it. From the example above it would seem any contribution toward fuel, food and expenses might be judged as a paying passenger by the USCG? Or perhaps I'm reading that backwards and those contributions are allowed?

I think you may be somewhat off the mark.

Generally, some tangible amount of worth exchanged for carriage on a vessel such as payment, exchange of goods or a promise of performance is required. “Consideration” does not include a voluntary sharing of the actual expenses of a voyage. Additionally, employees or business clients that have not contributed for their carriage, and are carried for morale or entertainment purposes is not included as exchange of consideration."

I can reimburse you my share of the fuel, beer and slip fees. You cannot charge for transporting me. I don't think the USCG is going to nitpick voluntary to mean your reminder that fuel is expensive or preference for guests willing to chip in on things.

[Kenomac]

We don't expect guests to pay for anything. But it's nice when they occasionally pitch in for groceries. Most of the post responders sound like cheap tightasses so far. IMHO

[mstrebe]

If you tell people that you expect them to chip in, you are creating an expectation of non-voluntary consideration and are therefore operating for-hire. There have been a number of cases, generally when something went wrong and there was a collision or fatality involved, where the receipt of consideration dramatically changed the legal case.

Here in San Diego, a supposed charity (which included just the captain, his boat, and a website) was taking folks sailing, and even though they didn't directly charge the passengers, they took donations online. When the boat overturned and two people died (from being illegally overloaded by 2X the max occupancy), the captain was imprisoned for operating illegally without a license--even though he wasn't charging the passengers directly, but because he was being paid to sail and operating without a captain's license. It's also clearly a case where a trained captain wouldn't have made the mistake that led to fatalities and the reason why licensing exists.

I would avoid making any kind of request for cash or any tally of expenses, because if there's an accident and the CG interviews your guests and asks them if they paid to sail, the wrong answer could really screw you.

[MarinerJo]

If they are guests I would never ask or expect them to to pay for anything. They are guests after all. If they choose to pitch in for booze or what ever, then so be it. But I would never try to set up some sort of payment, nor would I expect it.