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Old 17-02-2010, 13:28   #106
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There is no stumbling.

Of course I'm speaking of peer review. Peer Review is only a tool, it does not have the clout to decree the end of an argument. More importantly, it is a tool that cannot function unless dissenting "peers" are respected and their theories are studied.

As it stands, when nearly the entire climate research establishment has been given research grants contingent on them finding man-made climate change... it compromises the intellectual integrity of the whole system, because the future of their grants depend on them fishing out some evidence of GW, fraudulent or not.

As far as my comment about the "experts" constantly in shock. I was illustrating that nearly every time there is a weather or geological, or social, or scientific phenomenon, the "experts" are always in shock. So don't put too much faith in the sophists who tout themselves as experts.
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Old 17-02-2010, 13:47   #107
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I shall just politely bow out of this discussion as you experts and intelligentsia debate the scientific process and the relative merits of peer review while completely missing my point.
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Old 17-02-2010, 14:00   #108
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I shall just politely bow out of this discussion as you experts and intelligentsia debate the scientific process and the relative merits of peer review while completely missing my point.
Leave the door open, Im off as well. Fwiw I agree with you.
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Old 17-02-2010, 14:02   #109
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Jim, you prove my point, the earth even has a system to keep us in manageable numbers!
Only if you view this discussion about preserving the earth (the piece of dirt we live on) or the humans and social structure that make up the earth.

I don't think there is really much debate that we will hurt the earth by warming it more then 2 degrees. It will be fine. It is the people in low lying area and poor populations that have built their social structure around certain weather patterns (river deltas, flood seasons, etc) that will be disrupted that is the potential problem.

Some bacteria actually can do considerable harm to the host even when it is not in their own best interest for survival, so just because a system is natural or biologic does not always mean it is best left to it natural destiny.

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Old 17-02-2010, 14:23   #110
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This thread isn't going anywhere. It will be interesting to check back over the next few years and see the evolution. I think you people who are sold on the "Scientific Consensus" stand a great chance to be bitterly dissapointed for giving up so much freedom and capital on a hoax, which is in the process of being uncovered.
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Old 17-02-2010, 14:29   #111
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This thread isn't going anywhere. It will be interesting to check back over the next few years and see the evolution. I think you people who are sold on the "Scientific Consensus" stand a great chance to be bitterly dissapointed for giving up so much freedom and capital on a hoax, which is in the process of being uncovered.
And we don't recommend you live in low lying area.

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Old 17-02-2010, 14:52   #112
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Old 17-02-2010, 15:35   #113
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I think what we have here is a failure to communicate. I find very little to argue with in what I read above.
It was your statement, "It is absolute humanist arrogance to assume that humans can have any affect on this living and powerful planet. We are gnats in the grille of a Mack." that I find absurd on the face of it. Evidently zeehag understands it differently than I do.
There is no way that anyone with a set of functioning eyeballs can believe that humans can have no affect on the earth. You even concede that we should be good stewards of our resources. Why should we if we don't have any affect.
If you are saying that humans aren't powerful enough to destroy the planet by our pollution or overtaxing of resources, you may be right. I don't know. I'm pretty sure we can blow it up if we wanted to.
But we damn sure can and do have some negative affect. I know that a single volcano can spew more smog in the air in one eruption that man can produce in years. But smog from a volcano doesn't hang over Los Angeles or Mexico city like a pall most days of the year. That is an effect of man.
I know that mercury is naturally found in nature. The fact that it can be found in unnatural amounts in fish is an effect of man.
The fact that soil is depleted by the things that grow in it is completely natural. The fact that when man grows crops without replenishing the soil as it is replenished in nature until it is a barren wasteland is an effect of man.
We do affect the earth in countless ways everyday. Not always in a negative way either.
Why is this so hard to understand?
You and I actually agree on a lot but I do have a couple of points.

Warming created by humans I am not convinced of.

A completely different subject and one no one really argues against is the "pollution". It is bad but not related to human caused global warming. But only insofar as making the the earth less habitable by current species (and not all of them really). Nothing we do will "destroy the earth". We may destroy ourselves. Indeed we are plainly doing it with our continued increase in numbers. Plus, humans seem to not be able to argue with their neighbors and kill them in disputes of all sorts. The "earth" does not care. Conservation of numbers is what is needed as a priority.

Who is going to make those rules?
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Old 17-02-2010, 16:24   #114
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You and I actually agree on a lot but I do have a couple of points.

Warming created by humans I am not convinced of. (Nor am I. By a long stretch.)

A completely different subject and one no one really argues against is the "pollution". It is bad but not related to human caused global warming. But only insofar as making the the earth less habitable by current species (and not all of them really). Nothing we do will "destroy the earth". We may destroy ourselves. Indeed we are plainly doing it with our continued increase in numbers. (I agree that our increasing numbers are a problem but only because we are making few efforts to live in harmony with nature.)
Plus, humans seem to not be able to argue with their neighbors and kill them in disputes of all sorts. The "earth" does not care. Conservation of numbers is what is needed as a priority.

Who is going to make those rules?
Do you mean rules controlling population growth? I don't think that there should be any rules about that.
I know that I come off as idealistic and perhaps unrealistic, but I have faith that people can change.

I know that I'm sounding like a broken record, but I simply don't care anymore. I believe it's that important.

Right now, this very minute there are people spreading diseases in refugee camps in Haiti because no one has taken the time to teach them how to compost.
Composting. Something that happens all by itself if left to nature. Something that happens and always has happened to almost every bit of living matter eventually if left to nature. Something that is absolutely critical in the natural balance of every forest, jungle or even of the earth itself.
Yet we let people spread diseases and we waste countless gallons of drinking water while we argue about no discharge zones and municipalities that spill sewage into our waterways every time it rains.
Why? Because it's an uncomfortable subject. We are acting like the high class people who employed the untouchables to carry and empty their chamber pots.

I wonder how many of those little blue latrines are dotting the landscape in Haiti? Sitting there stinking and overflowing with no way to pump them out. All it would take is a couple of shipping containers filled with five gallon buckets and a bunch of dry material like ground up coconut fiber to change the entire landscape of the island. Not only for the short term but also in terms of rebuilding the soil and helping the people feed themselves in the future.

Therapy, I believe that there is hope, that we as humans have a chance at a future because many people are coming to the realization that progress doesn't always mean abandoning natural processes but rather using them and trying to live as a part of nature not above it.
I'm no expert at anything, and I love freedom more than life, but I'm also not too old to learn. Well, I've been learning lately and I, as I am wont to do, am going to talk about it until people start to listen. (I hope everyone knows how to use the ignore function)
I'm still pissed that after installing my 500 gallon rain catchment system, I read that I shouldn't drink the rain water. Dammit. I used to love drinking rainwater.
And some people say that humans have no effect on the planet.
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Old 17-02-2010, 16:30   #115
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Therapy, you go first with the "conservation of numbers", we're all right behind you.

It scares me that you would want to give a government that much power. A tyrannical governing body that decides who lives and who dies, all in the name of the "greater good", it was called the Third Reich.

There are many who believe what you do:
Population Control and Climate Change, Part One: Too Many People? : Climate and Capitalism
'Greens' movement may have darker agenda

"Beware of the do-gooders, they will harm you and their conscience will not tell them to stop!"
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Old 17-02-2010, 16:45   #116
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Originally Posted by knothead View Post
Do you mean rules controlling population growth? I don't think that there should be any rules about that.
I know that I come off as idealistic and perhaps unrealistic, but I have faith that people can change.

I know that I'm sounding like a broken record, but I simply don't care anymore. I believe it's that important.

Right now, this very minute there are people spreading diseases in refugee camps in Haiti because no one has taken the time to teach them how to compost.
Composting. Something that happens all by itself if left to nature. Something that happens and always has happened to almost every bit of living matter eventually if left to nature. Something that is absolutely critical in the natural balance of every forest, jungle or even of the earth itself.
Yet we let people spread diseases and we waste countless gallons of drinking water while we argue about no discharge zones and municipalities that spill sewage into our waterways every time it rains.
Why? Because it's an uncomfortable subject. We are acting like the high class people who employed the untouchables to carry and empty their chamber pots.

I wonder how many of those little blue latrines are dotting the landscape in Haiti? Sitting there stinking and overflowing with no way to pump them out. All it would take is a couple of shipping containers filled with five gallon buckets and a bunch of dry material like ground up coconut fiber to change the entire landscape of the island. Not only for the short term but also in terms of rebuilding the soil and helping the people feed themselves in the future.

Therapy, I believe that there is hope, that we as humans have a chance at a future because many people are coming to the realization that progress doesn't always mean abandoning natural processes but rather using them and trying to live as a part of nature not above it.
I'm no expert at anything, and I love freedom more than life, but I'm also not too old to learn. Well, I've been learning lately and I, as I am wont to do, am going to talk about it until people start to listen. (I hope everyone knows how to use the ignore function)
I'm still pissed that after installing my 500 gallon rain catchment system, I read that I shouldn't drink the rain water. Dammit. I used to love drinking rainwater.
And some people say that humans have no effect on the planet.
I don't either really but then I don't think a lot of the rules out there should be there either.

Notice this is not about global warming any more?

And there are I believe some that have been taught many things about "how to do things better" that benefit all but alas many are discarded as soon as the "teachers" leave or turn aside. Many reasons for that but singly is that humans are flawed. Seriously flawed.

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I.....am going to talk about it until people start to listen.
No problem.
I do feel though that if you were able to carry your message (and buckets and moss) to Haiti right now your overall impact on the country as a whole would be small. They were dismal before the quake and share the exact same rock as the DR. Look at the DR. What is the difference? It must be something. Let's blame the French shall we.
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Old 17-02-2010, 16:49   #117
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Let's blame the French shall we.
Agreed. With all my heart.
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Old 17-02-2010, 16:51   #118
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Do you mean rules controlling population growth? I don't think that there should be any rules about that.
I know that I come off as idealistic and perhaps unrealistic, but I have faith that people can change.

I know that I'm sounding like a broken record, but I simply don't care anymore. I believe it's that important.

Right now, this very minute there are people spreading diseases in refugee camps in Haiti because no one has taken the time to teach them how to compost.
Composting. Something that happens all by itself if left to nature. Something that happens and always has happened to almost every bit of living matter eventually if left to nature. Something that is absolutely critical in the natural balance of every forest, jungle or even of the earth itself.
Yet we let people spread diseases and we waste countless gallons of drinking water while we argue about no discharge zones and municipalities that spill sewage into our waterways every time it rains.
Why? Because it's an uncomfortable subject. We are acting like the high class people who employed the untouchables to carry and empty their chamber pots.

I wonder how many of those little blue latrines are dotting the landscape in Haiti? Sitting there stinking and overflowing with no way to pump them out. All it would take is a couple of shipping containers filled with five gallon buckets and a bunch of dry material like ground up coconut fiber to change the entire landscape of the island. Not only for the short term but also in terms of rebuilding the soil and helping the people feed themselves in the future.

Therapy, I believe that there is hope, that we as humans have a chance at a future because many people are coming to the realization that progress doesn't always mean abandoning natural processes but rather using them and trying to live as a part of nature not above it.
I'm no expert at anything, and I love freedom more than life, but I'm also not too old to learn. Well, I've been learning lately and I, as I am wont to do, am going to talk about it until people start to listen. (I hope everyone knows how to use the ignore function)
I'm still pissed that after installing my 500 gallon rain catchment system, I read that I shouldn't drink the rain water. Dammit. I used to love drinking rainwater.
And some people say that humans have no effect on the planet.

Knot,
I do agree with your conclusion, that we must protect our resources. I think we may disagree on the method, I believe it can be done through individual liberty. Each person should make their own decisions throughout life, as long as they do not violate other people's lives, liberty or property.

All individuals making decisions based on their own self interest, will indirectly benefit the society as a whole. We can through selfish desires to breathe clean air, and drink clean water, make our own decisions to reduce our own pollution. Liberty is a superior option to having a central body making every decision for us, who will in the end only serve it's own interest, which is to gain more power. The green movement only seeks to regulate, not offer choices, and that is what I think they are trying to accomplish through this man-made global warming movement.
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Old 17-02-2010, 16:59   #119
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They were dismal before the quake and share the exact same rock as the DR. Look at the DR. What is the difference? It must be something. Let's blame the French shall we.

/\ The DR has a constitution which protects the liberties of the individual, modeled after the US's, they operate under a capitalist economic system as well.

Haiti is an authoritarian nation, with no protection for the rights of the individual, the government is the largest employer, also the most corrupt. They have a pseudo legislature that only seeks to grow tyranny.



So yeah.... the weather in Florida seems to be improving!
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Old 17-02-2010, 17:02   #120
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[QUOTE=IronRoamer;405612]
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Therapy, you go first with the "conservation of numbers", we're all right behind you.
Yep. I have discussed this before. Quagmire for sure.

OK EVERYBODY, LISTEN UP, ON THREE; READY........ONE.......TWO.............

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It scares me that you would want to give a government

I never in my dreams or yours said "government". That was a misinterpretation of what I said/typed.





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A tyrannical governing body that decides who lives and who dies, all in the name of the "greater good", it was called the Third Reich.
Nah, that is just the biggest of the latest ones that you know about. There have been many on a broader scale and on a smaller scale throughout history and even today if one infers on others ideals and theorizes on their ultimate goals.

And it was not in the name of conservation nor keeping the planet habitable for humans as is this current discussion.

I did not go to those links before answering because I am aware that you think you know my "beliefs" and I wanted to be quick here.

Careful putting words in my mouth please.


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I like that one.
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