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Old 15-03-2016, 16:35   #16
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Re: Florida Anchor Ban Still Unsigned by governor

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...more overly sensitive types again...hmmm...sorry I hurt your feelings agin...no not really hahaha
You didn't really get it, but now its pretty clear why.
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Old 15-03-2016, 19:44   #17
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Re: Florida Anchor Ban Still Unsigned by governor

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Yup, City Marina Marathon in Boot key harbor takes in over $100K a month during season/when all 225 moorings are full...not supposed to use them as "wet storage" but the current director of ports/dock master let's that happen, this year they had over 50 on the wait list to get a mooring ball LOL. The corruption just begins there...funny watching seasonal cruisers bicker with local boat people about washers/dryers...dingy dock...the tiki...boat people selling their car parking sticker for city marina parking lot to people not even in the marina (boat people in anchorage going ashore elsewhere) the list goes on...too funny city marina boat people there don't even boat, they just live on boats cuz they can't afford anything else and have been there doing that way too long they don't even talk about boats, they talk about strangers making up stories and justifying bulling others like hillbillies and rednecks out in the country do...seasonal cruisers are gonna pipe up to tourist commission folks about it and next year there will be changes...I can see the director of ports leaving, he's tired of enforcing the rules clearly or as he says "I'm not a cop"

Just my experiences when one uses the cheapest methods you find yourself among those without means...trying to justify their free lunches, need for free gear or my fave on that is when boat people get something for free and sell it for profit instead of paying it forward to another needy person...karma!
I have no idea where you are going with this but I don't really care for many of your statements about my fellow cruisers. Yes, some people find themselves in minimum wage jobs and are put into a hard place trying to find affordable housing in some of the most expensive places in the country. Where would you expect your dishwashers and maids to live? Down by Turkey Point under the bridge?

The people of Miami and Fort Lauderdale really do not give a two shakes about live-aboards or cruisers.
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Old 15-03-2016, 19:55   #18
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Re: Florida Anchor Ban Still Unsigned by governor

fuzzy math in re: Boot Key/Marathon:

226 moorings at Boot Key x $300/mo = $67,800
that is, not even close to $100K/mo, and...
And that's only when the balls are all taken.

These mooring fields cost more than they take in, there's no doubt about that. How much do the moorings cost to install and maintain? How much are the salaries of the folks working for the mooring fields? How much for the pumpout boat and person to work it? How much for the showers and laundry to run and maintain?

I am pretty damn sure that in general, "cruisers," however you care to define them, cost the state of Florida (or any other state for that matter) more than they bring in. It's no surprise that the state is only too happy to legislate anchoring out of existence. Can't blame them, not one bit...
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Old 16-03-2016, 00:08   #19
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Re: Florida Anchor Ban Still Unsigned by governor

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fuzzy math in re: Boot Key/Marathon:

226 moorings at Boot Key x $300/mo = $67,800
that is, not even close to $100K/mo, and...
And that's only when the balls are all taken.

These mooring fields cost more than they take in, there's no doubt about that. How much do the moorings cost to install and maintain? How much are the salaries of the folks working for the mooring fields? How much for the pumpout boat and person to work it? How much for the showers and laundry to run and maintain?

I am pretty damn sure that in general, "cruisers," however you care to define them, cost the state of Florida (or any other state for that matter) more than they bring in. It's no surprise that the state is only too happy to legislate anchoring out of existence. Can't blame them, not one bit...
If you got union hacks doing the job - may be. A typical mooring costs under $1,000 to install (usually under $500, that's the cost to the installer not what he ends up charging for it) and about $100-200/yr to maintain (annualized as app. every 3rd or 4th year you'd be replacing chains, pennants, etc so it's actually about $200-300 every third year) unless of course you're paying $50-100/hour boatyard rates and replacing hardware every year (I doubt that these guys replace more often than once in 5 years, if at all).

I personally would not mind running a business where I could charge $300/mo for a mooring even if only 50% occupied. Here in MA a typical mooring rent is between $800 and $1,200 PER SEASON (may be $1,500 for 50+ft boats), which is about 5 months, and none of the mooring companies are going out of business. Most augment this income by running launches, having repair business on a side, etc. But none are hurting financially AFAIK.

As far as pump outs - Feds and state usually subsidize those to begin with at about $50K to $75K per year per pump out with the proviso that they'd be free to the public. Of course many operators find it lucrative to forego the subsidy with it's attendant limitations and just charge whatever the market will bear. But that's not the boaters' fault, is it?

As far as laundry, showers, vending machines, etc. - if they're priced correctly they should be paying for themselves without scaring people into not using them. As in any business or undertaking there is a right way to run it and there is a gov't mandated way.
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Old 16-03-2016, 07:58   #20
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Re: Florida Anchor Ban Still Unsigned by governor

Island Time, I think your numbers are low.

According to the below link, the average cost to install and maintain a mooring is $500/year, and at 226 moorings, that's a cost $9,417 per month.

http://coralreef.noaa.gov/education/...ing_buoy_g.pdf


And that's only one example of cost:
--there is still the salary of the pumpout boat handlers, and I expect that not only is there a salary, but insurance would be mandatory in that pumpouts carry the risk of not only coliform infection but cute things like hepatitis etc.
--gotta maintain the pumpout boat
--there are buildings and grounds at Boot Key, someone pays for those
--I've heard plenty of whining about how much the laundry at BK costs to use and I expect that there are plenty of folks who don't use it
--the price per month of the mooring includes the showers and bathrooms, so that goes against the intake


You can have your idea of 'priced correctly' all day long, but the reality is, that the public is subsidizing the cost of these fields and there's not that much of the public who actually benefit. The field is only full about three months of the year, but the costs go on.

And besides, the derelicts and anchor-outs don't pay at all and are yet benefiting from the Florida public's kind subsidization of them. And I've posted examples of just how expensive it is to remove derelicts.

On the other hand, land-based tourism provides far more employment and utilizes infrastructure already in place. Land tourists, far more numerous than transient or otherwise boaters, spend more money per each. Gas to travel, hotels to stay in, they buy food in restaurants, they purchase gewgaws, they get the eff out before they cost more than they put in. Think of a family of four going to Orlando. They probably spend in a day what a cruising couple does in a whole week, maybe more.

Any sailing forum you go on has innumerable threads on 'how can I do XX cheaper/anchor for free/get free whatnot?' Sailors don't spend money, and anchor'ers even less.

Florida is just plain tired of having 'tourists' that cost more than they bring in.
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Old 16-03-2016, 08:16   #21
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Re: Florida Anchor Ban Still Unsigned by governor

As someone who owned 2 moorings for the past 7-10 years I can attest that the costs are less than $500/yr if you annualize the expenses. And I have mooring renters who were paying $700-800/per season leave because they found something cheaper.

Now mind you that our mooring field is about 1hr from Boston so may be that's the reason that in downtown Boston the mooring rents are probably double ours. But that does not mean Boston's moorings are twice as expensive to maintain, just that the demand there is twice our area's.

PS When I purchased my 1st mooring 10 years ago I paid for it what downtown moorings were costing to rent for a season. But when I bragged about it to some boat buy from Maine, thinking myself so smart, he laughed and said that I paid 2X his installation price, meaning that he already priced his profit into his price.
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Old 16-03-2016, 08:21   #22
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Re: Florida Anchor Ban Still Unsigned by governor

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Florida is just plain tired of having 'tourists' that cost more than they bring in.
With Cuba opening up any moment now what a great time to kick the cruisers 100 miles south.
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Old 16-03-2016, 08:38   #23
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Re: Florida Anchor Ban Still Unsigned by governor

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And you also keep a sledgehammer aboard to kill flies...

Sent from my SM-T210R using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
An AR15 might be more appropriate in Florida
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Old 16-03-2016, 09:36   #24
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Re: Florida Anchor Ban Still Unsigned by governor

Generally speaking, if the governor doesn't sign the bill ... doesn't the bill become law?

I think he has to veto the bill to make the legislature squirm to override ...

BTW ... I always take note that one argument against those "boater", is the the polluting of the area ... especially with the sewerage effluent.

I question whether this happens or if it does how often ... but I will tell you this, people with really nice looking lawns usually have a lot of harmful chemicals used to keep everything pretty ...polluting anything of a lower elevation.
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Old 16-03-2016, 10:05   #25
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Re: Florida Anchor Ban Still Unsigned by governor

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Generally speaking, if the governor doesn't sign the bill ... doesn't the bill become law?

I think he has to veto the bill to make the legislature squirm to override ...

BTW ... I always take note that one argument against those "boater", is the the polluting of the area ... especially with the sewerage effluent.

I question whether this happens or if it does how often ... but I will tell you this, people with really nice looking lawns usually have a lot of harmful chemicals used to keep everything pretty ...polluting anything of a lower elevation.
To answer your question no it would not become law it would just quietly die if it were vetoed it would go back to the legislature and they can override the veto.
On the sewage issue. Here in Washington we had a similar issue claiming that the sewage problem in eagle harbor was due to boaters however the end result was that the pollution was actually comming from the homes around the area via failed/ improperly maintained septic systems.
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Old 16-03-2016, 10:06   #26
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Re: Florida Anchor Ban Still Unsigned by governor

My understanding is that the governor has 15 days to sign or veto. If the governor does not sign, it becomes law.
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Old 16-03-2016, 10:18   #27
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Re: Florida Anchor Ban Still Unsigned by governor

You can't figure the cost of moorings like a commodity sale item. First of all, a municipal mooring field creates opportunities for political favors. Does the pumpout boat get government funding? Even if it doesn't, awarding the contract for that service is a political favor. You can't ever have too many of those to hand out. Even when rules require three bids and an aware to the low bidder, there are ways to game that system. Ditto for the installation and maintenance. And every time you create a job, favor or not, you also lower unemployment costs and raise the tax base, which is how states also justify paying obscene amounts to companies willing to relocate create jobs. Often the "subsidy" covers the entire payroll for a couple of years, and if the company moves again after that...tfb.
But guessing at the operating costs without having a wealth of detail to figure out what the real costs are? That's like arguing whether an outrigger canoe is a blue-water boat, isn't it?
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Old 16-03-2016, 10:21   #28
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Re: Florida Anchor Ban Still Unsigned by governor

I stand corrected it does intact become law even without his signature . ( a way for him to agree with a law but appear to support the people that are against it or negatively affected by it IMO )
How a Bill Becomes a Law | Florida | FFPC
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Old 16-03-2016, 12:01   #29
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Re: Florida Anchor Ban Still Unsigned by governor

so what you really have is a gutless back-door way of making law...

The only advantage is that the governor can wash his hands of involvement if the supreme court later rules the law unconstitutional ...
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Old 16-03-2016, 12:20   #30
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Re: Florida Anchor Ban Still Unsigned by governor

I'm not sure how passage in the Florida House and Senate is a gutless, back door way of making a law. Legislatures make laws. The governor has veto power, but he or she does not have to bother signing the gajillion laws and amendments passed every year. I think there is quite a bit wrong with this piece of legislation, but the process is not one of those things.
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