Florida Anchor Ban Still Unsigned by governor

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

......
Someone mentioned that the costs of repossessing and disposing a derelict boat are too high. Well in that case the state rather than enacting socialistic NIMBY laws should auction off that salvage contract to the lowest bidder whose primary profit will come from parting those boats out and the state just picking up the land fill hull disposal cost or better yet designate a state owned landfill which would take those hulls gratis thus making the whole procedure profitable enough for the contractors, etc. Not a rocket science and done daily with cars and other abandoned personal property. In this economy there should be enough underemployed haulers and salvagers to at least make a sizable dent in this problem. Of course those salvagers who are too greedy to accept a sure bet of a steady $500-1,000 profit and rather lie in wait for that hapless skipper to rip him off for 10s of thousands of $$ will not agree. But why should their greed be a part of the public policy anyway?

Derelict boats have no value, that's what makes them derelict. There is no salvage value, only costs.

[SURV69]

If no values can be attributed to them ... very, very holistically speaking, then it shouldn't matter that they're being abandoned.

Aside from the piddly amount of hardware and such, the value of the has to include the monetary benefit for them not being there ... that, in and of itself, gives them, in a rather perversed manner ... value.

If removal of the derelicts make the area more desirable for others to spend money, then let that potential for increased revenue be a part of the incentive to rid the waterways of the derelicts.

If the removal of derelicts have absolutely no impact ... then let them sit and rot ... even for a thousands years if need be.

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by SURV69

If no values can be attributed to them ... very, very holistically speaking, then it shouldn't matter that they're being abandoned.

Aside from the piddly amount of hardware and such, the value of the has to include the monetary benefit for them not being there ... that, in and of itself, gives them, in a rather perversed manner ... value.

If removal of the derelicts make the area more desirable for others to spend money, then let that potential for increased revenue be a part of the incentive to rid the waterways of the derelicts.

If the removal of derelicts have absolutely no impact ... then let them sit and rot ... even for a thousands years if need be.

That's what happens, the cost of removal is spread across the taxpayer base. Analogous to you having to either step over or clean up dog **** when it's from someone's dog.

[Blue Crab]

Likewise the value of a derelict is much overrated. The good stuff is gone. And marine consignment stores runneth over with old re-purposed crap nobody wants.

And let us not forget the many unenforced existing laws that could have dealt with the issues in a timely manner. We pay the bills but we're not in charge.

[Sailor Jer]

Originally Posted by Davy J

I'm not sure how you "process the title out of your name".

Here is a link to the "Bill of Sale/Notice of Sale":

https://www.flhsmv.gov/dmv/forms/BTR/82050.pdf

Even though it claims you must notify the Tax Collector, it clearly states on the bottom of the form that ownership status will not change until the Buyer has applied for and is issued a Certificate of Title. So unless you force the buyer to meet you at a tax collectors office, I don't think you can "process the title out of your name".

Of course it's all relative, selling a 1.2 million dollar Swan, I think the buyer will make sure the title transfers. Selling a 1978 Catalina 30 with a seized motor for $500.00, maybe not so much.

Yes, taking the new owner of the vessel you are selling to the tax auditor and taking part in the process of them processing the title into their name and acquiring registration for said vessel Into their name is how you PROCESS A TITLE OUT OF YOUR NAME and relieve yourself from responsibility/liability/burden...
this practice/procedure is what any lawyer will tell you...tax auditor office people who process titles/registration like this best as they have both parties so paperwork goes smoothly...don't even require a bill of sale much less a phone number " in case there is snafu in the paperwork) when you do it this way (both parties present at processing) as it's seen as the absolute responsible legal bound legitimate route of finalizing a sale of a vessel or vehicle!

Might seem overdone, troublesome, inconvenient and anal to some, but do you really trust strangers with your property you are responsible/liable for???
That is what you're essentially doing when you let someone run off with a vessel/vehicle you sold them with an unprocessed title...they wreck it, wreck something by running your unprocessed titled vessel you still own into something or kill someone with it and you are either directly responsible or at best partially responsible as the owner cuz you didn't process said vessel/vehicle (close the deal responsibly) outta your name, you trusted a stranger with your best interests as well as your net worth...

Really, best place to close a deal on a vessel/vehicle in Florida is at the county tax auditors office where they process titles/do registration!
Finalized Done deal when you transfer ownership by processing the title...
Besides, all kinds of witness to watch you count out the cash (I suppose you take personal checks too?) as its seemingly as secure as walking into a bank with all the police around typically...

...go do it your way though, keep us informed please and share those stories about the people you trusted with your signed off title, some bill of sale & personal check..that didn't ever process much less register said vessel/vehicle and especially the stories of those personal checks...

[Davy J]

go do it your way though, keep us informed please and share those stories about the people you trusted with your signed off title, some bill of sale & personal check..that didn't ever process much less register said vessel/vehicle and especially the stories of those personal checks...

Bought and sold 4 vessels in the last 24 months.......

No problems, but mostly documented vessels that don't have Florida title.

Wire transfers too.......

Guess I've just dealt with a higher caliber buyer than you are used to......

[Blue Crab]

Originally Posted by Davy J

Bought and sold 4 vessels in the last 24 months.......

No problems, but mostly documented vessels that don't have Florida title.

Wire transfers too.......

Guess I've just dealt with a higher caliber buyer than you are used to......

Apparently so. I'm also guessing you made a good lick on each one, unlike every other sailor on the planet.

[Davy J]

I'm also guessing you made a good lick on each one, unlike every other sailor on the planet.

Well I wouldn't go that far...........

One sailboat I owned for ten years, sold it for $1000.00 more than I paid for it. Unfortunately, doesn't include the new sails I bought, motor parts, sheets, halyards, oh good grief........... I think I lost my a$$$$

[Cap Erict3]

Originally Posted by Sailor Jer

Yes, taking the new owner of the vessel you are selling to the tax auditor and taking part in the process of them processing the title into their name and acquiring registration for said vessel Into their name is how you PROCESS A TITLE OUT OF YOUR NAME and relieve yourself from responsibility/liability/burden...
this practice/procedure is what any lawyer will tell you...tax auditor office people who process titles/registration like this best as they have both parties so paperwork goes smoothly...don't even require a bill of sale much less a phone number " in case there is snafu in the paperwork) when you do it this way (both parties present at processing) as it's seen as the absolute responsible legal bound legitimate route of finalizing a sale of a vessel or vehicle!

Might seem overdone, troublesome, inconvenient and anal to some, but do you really trust strangers with your property you are responsible/liable for???
That is what you're essentially doing when you let someone run off with a vessel/vehicle you sold them with an unprocessed title...they wreck it, wreck something by running your unprocessed titled vessel you still own into something or kill someone with it and you are either directly responsible or at best partially responsible as the owner cuz you didn't process said vessel/vehicle (close the deal responsibly) outta your name, you trusted a stranger with your best interests as well as your net worth...

Really, best place to close a deal on a vessel/vehicle in Florida is at the county tax auditors office where they process titles/do registration!
Finalized Done deal when you transfer ownership by processing the title...
Besides, all kinds of witness to watch you count out the cash (I suppose you take personal checks too?) as its seemingly as secure as walking into a bank with all the police around typically...

...go do it your way though, keep us informed please and share those stories about the people you trusted with your signed off title, some bill of sale & personal check..that didn't ever process much less register said vessel/vehicle and especially the stories of those personal checks...

I have found dealing with large money transactions best done with a cashiers check. The sale is finalized at the place where the title search has come back clean and the transfer notarized.

I'm betting not many boat owners here have paid in greenbacks. At least for boats costing more than $5k.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Cap Erict3

I have found dealing with large money transactions best done with a cashiers check. The sale is finalized at the place where the title search has come back clean and the transfer notarized.

I'm betting not many boat owners here have paid in greenbacks. At least for boats costing more than $5k.

Cashiers checks can be cancelled so not fool proof.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by Blue Crab

Likewise the value of a derelict is much overrated. The good stuff is gone. And marine consignment stores runneth over with old re-purposed crap nobody wants.

And let us not forget the many unenforced existing laws that could have dealt with the issues in a timely manner. We pay the bills but we're not in charge.

Those are self inflicted wounds by the store owners. Years ago, when I got my own boat, I used to stop by Sailorman's in the naive hope that they come to their senses and stop pricing 30 year old items at the 60% of the current price of that item NEW. Once to my inquiry as to why a 30 year old winch was a few hundred dollars the lady at the counter asked if I know how much it is new? Bet you if it was priced $10-20 it would be gone in a second. And so would be 99% of the stuff taken off the derelict boats. Bet you if marine junkers price the gear correctly, i.e. cents on the dollar they would sell out in a week and would be ready for next batch.

Check out any yard/estate sales. Smart ones which price their stuff right are done in one short morning/afternoon. The ones trying to peddle old crap at ridiculous "antique" prices are repeated for weeks without many sales.

My hauler has a marine junk yard and once told me that eventually they average out about $3,000 per junked boat in gross proceeds. Sure, this number includes abut $1,000-1,500 they charge the owners to take the boat off their hands but at least it also shows that some money can be made off of the junked boat. The engine if toast is sold by weight to the scrapper. And so does the rig, etc.

I'm not saying that one can make a killing parting out junk boats but to imply that there is zero scrap value in them is utter bunk. It's just that everyone in the marine industry, not just poor folks in far away foreign lands scamming a gringo with a "yacht", wants to make a killing and anything less than that "has no value".

Plus as was pointed out above, the value of not having junk boats as eye sores endangering the anchorages, should also be taken into account when weighing in pros and cons of removing them at the taxpayers' expense. These costs can and should be offset by enforced vigorous prosecution, fines to the registered owners and by various tax/regulatory incentives for salvagers/junkers to take them in.

I find it ironic that as a society we are schizofrenic about ecology. On one hand we profess to care about the environment and make individuals jump through the hoops allegedly in the name of clean this or that. On the other hand we don't seem to care about re-cycling/re-purposing old stuff, especially the plastic kind which has a tendency to pollute everything if not disposed of properly and timely.

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

SNIP

Plus as was pointed out above, the value of not having junk boats as eye sores endangering the anchorages, should also be taken into account when weighing in pros and cons of removing them at the taxpayers' expense.

SNIP

Probably a hard sell to the taxpayers.

Bet the taxpayers would be happier keeping boats out in the first place.

Sorta like what this bill does.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by tomfl

Probably a hard sell to the taxpayers.

Bet the taxpayers would be happier keeping boats out in the first place.

Sorta like what this bill does.

What's next? Banning all dog owners from walking their dogs because some of the dogs' poop is not picked up by the few irresponsible owners and the "taxpayers" don't want to spend $$ to keep the streets clean?

This is how it should be done. I sold my 25 footer to couple of sailing newbie kids. Didn't get around to de-registering it from my name for a few weeks. Meantime I get a call and a voice message from the harbormaster of the next town asking me why I anchored for several days in the middle of the channel. I called them back explaining the situation giving him the names and contact info of the buyers. He advised me to de-register ASAP to avoid any problems. which I promptly did online and it took me all of 5 minutes. As to the boat it was gone the next day or two.

Now, the boat was not derelict, actually in quite nice condition so I guess that was the reason that they did not call me earlier as it did not look abandoned, just anchored in the wrong spot. What would prevent any Florida harbormaster from pursuing the same course? I talked to my mooring servicer who has inside info on the happenings in the mooring field and he told me that while the harbormasters hate dong this at the same time they do not hesitate to take action and rid off the filed of abandoned/derelict vessels by towing and disposing them if/when the owner is nowhere to be found and/or dos not reply to numerous phone calls and notices.

It seems to me that the mantra of complaints in Florida can and should be dealt with in a similar fashion - instead of b*tching about those derelicts local harbor/anchorage authorities should be doing their jobs and using the EXISTING laws to remove those boats. Sure it costs $$, everything in this life costs $$, and "it costs $$" should not be an argument for not doing the job one's office is entrusted with. What FL legislature and gubbna are doing are trying to do something on the cheap instead of doing it right. Had the local authorities been doing their jobs in the first place the problem of derelicts would not have gone as far as it did, if it is as bad as some are saying here.

[SURV69]

De-registering ... wow!

In Ohio, for a car, the closest thing we have is if there's enought "time", remaining on the present registration, an application can be made for money returned from that portion of "taxes", paid for the registration.

Also, in Ohio, the registration can be transferred at the Ohio Department of Watercraft ... so let's also add that step to the full compliment of things to do.

Only the buyers can transfer the title .... only the buyers can transfer the registration ... if they don't act, it's still your boat

Imagine, this used to be the same for real property ... one could buy a $250,000 house and never ... NEVER bother to "record", the instrument ... of course, it would be at their peril, if they lose the original, and it leaves a hole in the history of title.

For myself, when I paid off my home, I didn't record the satisfaction for about 10 years ... finally recorded it shortly before I got divorced.

[SURV69]

On the issue of boats ...

Many ... many of these boats are complete enough that taken to the local playground(after being "cleaned") and embedded as a "plaything", for kids ... what kid wouldn't want something looking like the "SS Minnow" to play in.

Restaurants down there serve Crab, Flounder and Lobster at pristinely clean tables, sometimes in booths, sometimes in the middle of a big room...

Imagine these restaurants getting some of these "clean" derelicts, and with the help of loosened legislation(if needed). Imagine the matronee(sp), walking you and your wife and kids to a "BOAT", to eat your dinner in? How about the same for a small group of 3-5 at a bar sitting in a "repurposed", sailboat.

A little use of imagination, might help in resolving this problem.