Comfort Index

[BandB]

Originally Posted by jwcolby54

Thanks to all responders. I am of course in an early level of understanding. And my frustration is less with the lack of data, than the predominance of certain types of expressed opinions.

The question I kept asking and you kept ignoring I see you answered in another thread. You've never sailed (although been on a sailboat). You should find some way to go sail without buying any boat, perhaps some lessons. Until you actually do that you're in no position to choose a boat. Neither one will be comfortable. Your lessons will probably be on smaller boats, but that's fine. After a couple of lessons you may find others you can help as a mate or deck hand and get experience.

I'm a power boater, not a sailor, although I have actually sailed a few times with a real sailor aboard as well. I would be comfortable with me running any power boat, anywhere. However, there is no sailboat that I'd be comfortable today with me sailing alone.

[jwcolby54]

Originally Posted by Hudson Force

jwcolby, Please look at the "predominance" of the responses to your thread. Twenty four differenct members have responded to your concerns and only two fit the description of your complaint. Most have been accepting of your goals and supporting your quest although pointing out a variety of opinions. If you are unable to recognize the "predominance" of those that support you, we might develop the impression that your only true goal is to complain.

Focus on your mission and your large group of supporters.

You are of course correct. Sigh. I guess it simply feels like the "predominance" because of the sheer quantity of those other posts.

I have continuously expressed thanks for that large group of supporters. And I do so again.

And on that note I am going to step out of this and my other thread. I will also cease to discuss dollars in any way shape or form. It seems to attract lightning.

[BandB]

Originally Posted by Hudson Force

jwcolby, It's apparent that you are quite frustrated by not receiving a clear and simple answer to your question as quoted above. .

When we know very little about a subject it seems simple and we expect simple answers. The more we learn, the more we understand the complexities and understand that there are no simple answers.

[BandB]

Originally Posted by jwcolby54

You are of course correct. Sigh. I guess it simply feels like the "predominance" because of the sheer quantity of those other posts.
.

What made those predominant was your volleying back and forth with them. You gave them your time and energy.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by BandB

When we know very little about a subject it seems simple and we expect simple answers. The more we learn, the more we understand the complexities and understand that there are no simple answers.

Dunning-Kruger effect?

[StuM]

Originally Posted by BandB

What made those predominant was your volleying back and forth with them. You gave them your time and energy.

He should have just "colbyized" them. I'll leave it up to JC to decide whether he wants to expand on that

[Schrewsburyduo]

Sorry to butt in after such nasty exchanges but I did want to add some impressions for the OP. I have a 32 that is medium heavy by today's standards (about 9500lb loaded). A friend has a heavy 32 (about 14000). Two totally different boats. You can guess which sails faster but the comfort is so much better on the heavy boat. You might find a heavy 32 to be adequate in comfort level and a light 37 to be bumpy as hell. Probably a good idea to go on boats and crew for people and feel for yourself what you're comfortable with. Size is not the only thing to compare. The design probably has a bigger impact as well. For what it's worth both my friend and i got our respective 32s for under $20k and they both have nice newer diesels and are seaworthy boats.


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[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by jwcolby54

And let's not forget mr "for $20K comfort isn't going to be your primary consideration".

And all of those responders seem to feel I should bow in gratitude for those responses???

Do you feel that way?

The comment made perfect sense, to me. For $20K, in the 33-37' range, I think I'd first be looking at seaworthiness, whether the candidates include features I must have ("comfort" could be one, though), whether stuff (aux power, winches, water pumps, whatever) actually works, whether stuff can be fixed. Then, if necessary, I'd be looking at how much (work, money, time) it would take to get it to an acceptable state.

I didn't take that comment to read that there are no potentially viable $20K candidates, nor that anyone should necessarily spend more than $20K. I didn't interpret it as a slight on income levels, or experience levels.

Just seemed to me it was trying to be helpful.

-Chris

[BlueMaxx]

To the OP,

Hi, I am a "newbie" too...and after reading through this I wanted to encourage you to please seek out The Capable Cruiser by the Pardey's and simply read the first chapter.

"...This is my learn-to-sail, prepare-to-cruise plan, this is the boat I can afford, the one I will be able to safely handle, both mentally and physically and financially".

from Capable Cruiser, Pardey's



Cheers,

M

[Mike OReilly]

Good advice from recent posters. I hope the OP is still reading.

I appreciate the frustration new sailors/cruisers and new forum participants can have here. I also appreciate the desire to analyse and quantify the problem (i.e. which boat is best for me). As a science guy, I too followed the data/spreadsheet approach. And it worked ... but only after I gained a lot of practical experience sailing and cruising a number of different boats.

The OP is clearly at the early stages of this journey. That's great. We all started there. Read and learn. Talk to real sailors (not just virtual ones ). Hang out at marinas and yacht clubs. If you're friendly and interested it's not hard to get invited onto other people's boats. Crawl around on as many as you can. Become crew with the racing fleet if you can. Sail as many as you can. Take courses and/or charter.

When you're ready I recommend buying a 25-30 footer that is solid, but has all the main systems of a larger cruising boat (rig, anchor, galley, head, engine, tankage, etc). It will teach you tons about what you really need and want. Then start looking for the boat using your spreadsheets and data points.

[BandB]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

The comment made perfect sense, to me. For $20K, in the 33-37' range, I think I'd first be looking at seaworthiness, whether the candidates include features I must have ("comfort" could be one, though), whether stuff (aux power, winches, water pumps, whatever) actually works, whether stuff can be fixed. Then, if necessary, I'd be looking at how much (work, money, time) it would take to get it to an acceptable state.

I didn't take that comment to read that there are no potentially viable $20K candidates, nor that anyone should necessarily spend more than $20K. I didn't interpret it as a slight on income levels, or experience levels.

Just seemed to me it was trying to be helpful.

-Chris

One thing I've noticed in general, in the world at large. Regardless of one's income level, they seem to feel that they're the only one who faces financial restraints and those making more than them have none. Everyone has restraints and has to consider finances in their decisions. Pick a number, any number. There was a famous actor once who bought Bentley rather than Rolls Royce to save a fee hundred dollars. A man worth $300 million loves sports but can't afford a team in any major league so buys a minor league team. And boats. A man buys a 164' Westport at around $40 million rather than double that for a Feadship or another buys a 15 year old 204' Feadship for $54 million because he can't afford a new one.

And for the person budgeting $20,000 to buy a boat, keep in mind that the vast majority of people in the world do not have $20,000 they can afford to spend on a boat.

We all face financial limitations. I use to have a boss worth over $70 billion and it was amazing to hear him say about something "I can't believe what they charge for that. I'm amazed anyone is willing to pay that amount."

I'm honestly surprised that someone didn't pop in to say (and they may have in the 5000 pages of this thread) that $20,000 was way too much to spend for a boat when you could find perfectly good ones for half that.

In fact, I'd imagine most here spent less than $20,000 on their first boat. Mine was less than that.

It's like the boating on $xxx a month threads where it doesn't matter what number you choose some think it's way too much and some think it's way too little.

[exMaggieDrum]

JC, if you are still monitoring this thread, you are not alone in wanting to get a boat at price you can afford. This forum can be extremely useful and many of the posters have tried to address your issue in constructive ways. And others just want to drown you in cold water. Some posters just seem to have a mean streak in them but many of the others feel passionately about what they are saying because they have seen what it can be like to buy that first boat and all the gotchas that come pouring in the hatches later to sink your dream.

Your budget number is challenging for sure. Can it be done - yes - but not for sure. My budget was higher but my knowledge of boating no better. We got a 20 y/o boat which had plenty of capability but lots of deferred maintenance. Lower price boats (in a particular size/quality/use) tend to have lots of deferred maintenance. Occasionally you find a real steal and get lucky. But there will still be lots of deferred maintenance, only less so. And, even if you were the most expert of all buyers, you would get a boat which needs some amount of work.

The boat I just got has some issues that I did not know of specifically but knew would be there and that I would find them sooner or later. A hose from the galley sink to a thru-hull that is dangerously close to failing. I can fix this for about $10. If the thru-hull needs fixing, it will be about $100 plus the cost of a haulout, and the cost is low since I can do 100% of the work. It has to be done since the boat could sink if any of it fails. Or if my batteries are no good - kaching. Engine - kaching. Steering - kaching. Some of this I could fix if I needed to. Some of it would have to be hired out. It is so easy to rack up thousands of dollars on a boat. It's a cliche of course.

Please understand that anyone who has had a boat has had to deal with this. The first $20,000 is only the first 20 of those to follow. But like us, if you manage to find a boat that suits you, you'll find this out to be true on your own. Just go in with your eyes wide open and be prepared for glorious times in exotic places on your liveaboard, in between times fixing the boat in exotic places. And I'm not talking about bells and whistles here. You can spend far more on gizmos, gadgets, and upgrades (or not). But you have to keep the water on the outside of the boat, have a way to steer and move, have some drinking water and food, and otherwise stay safe.

It was an eye-opener for us for sure. But we have no regrets. Do your homework, make your best decisions, and go for it. Just understand that it can be a challenge and can break some people. Other posters may feel obligated to point this out to you, some in nicer ways than others. I have friends here though who live on their own boats (in the local marinas) who got in for a similar budget but there are more who thought they could do it and found out they got in over their heads. This should not be a reason to not do it - just a reason to do the best homework you can. And the scope of the lessons is so broad that it really is a multi-year education and most of it you will only get to do after you have your own boat. The one thing I do know is that you will never really learn it without owning your own boat at some point. Things get real then. So go do it and good luck (tempered by your can do attitude and homework).

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by BandB

One thing I've noticed in general, in the world at large. Regardless of one's income level, they seem to feel that they're the only one who faces financial restraints and those making more than them have none. Everyone has restraints and has to consider finances in their decisions. ...

...

We all face financial limitations. ...

Yep. And I suspect (at least hope) most folks anywhere on the spectrum don't really judge anyone else's true value just by income or budget level.

I wonder how this thread might have progressed if the original post had been something simply like this:

"How different is 33' at 11000 lbs vs 37' at 17000 lbs? Motion in weather. Motion in calm on hook. Safety in weather. Trying to decide whether to just do it on a 33' or keep looking for a 37ish."

IOW, completely without regard to budget or income... I tried to keep my earlier input (post #36) completely budget-agnostic...

-Chris

[Novelistus]

Originally Posted by Cap Erict3

I sail a 1980 Morgan Out Island 415 Sloop. It is a much maligned model while being a best seller in its day. 27000 lbs empty, 41' LOA, almost 14' beam she is not a racing sailors dream.
......
Most of what I did was so it wasn't so hard to singlehand. It was a bear and largely because of the size.

If you go for a larger boat for its comfort and safety you need to factor in the added complexity of a big boat set up short handed sailing.

would you say, that with a larger boat being set up as a ketch would be easier to handle single handed ? When I think single-handed, then my biggest worries are dealing with emergencies, or situations which can become an emergency if not dealt with in a timely matter.
30 ft is not inherently more difficult to sail than a 40 ft.
Smaller sail areas for the same size boat on a ketch would sure make a difference I think. Same with docking and anchoring, and keeping complexity down so you can keep a good lookout when necessary.
I started looking from 40ft down and I think now that I'll be just happy with a 30-32 footer which will be more fun to sail too and should still be enough space to live on it. If one really thinks he can handle the weights and works on a 37ft sailboat, make sure you've experienced it.

That's what I love on this forum, so much experience. I went a long way from just reading. Now it all narrows down and combines with the actual experiences. Keep it simple, become a really good sailor, sail lots, check out boats, have fun. And of course be ready to buy. Lots of good boats out there. My budget is not much higher at 30 k cdn and I am confident I'll find one. Soon, while parting the waves, I'll find my boat ;-)

[Cap Erict3]

Originally Posted by Novelistus

would you say, that with a larger boat being set up as a ketch would be easier to handle single handed ? When I think single-handed, then my biggest worries are dealing with emergencies, or situations which can become an emergency if not dealt with in a timely matter.
30 ft is not inherently more difficult to sail than a 40 ft.
Smaller sail areas for the same size boat on a ketch would sure make a difference I think. Same with docking and anchoring, and keeping complexity down so you can keep a good lookout when necessary.
I started looking from 40ft down and I think now that I'll be just happy with a 30-32 footer which will be more fun to sail too and should still be enough space to live on it. If one really thinks he can handle the weights and works on a 37ft sailboat, make sure you've experienced it.

That's what I love on this forum, so much experience. I went a long way from just reading. Now it all narrows down and combines with the actual experiences. Keep it simple, become a really good sailor, sail lots, check out boats, have fun. And of course be ready to buy. Lots of good boats out there. My budget is not much higher at 30 k cdn and I am confident I'll find one. Soon, while parting the waves, I'll find my boat ;-)

Enjoy ur search and by all means sail the boat before u buy.