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Old 01-06-2015, 08:52   #76
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Re: Comfort Index

Squeteague Sailmakers - Sail Price Calculator

For winches, just google "harken winches" and prices will pop up on the search page.

Lots of other bits and pieces: http://garhauermarine.com/catalog.cfm
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Old 01-06-2015, 08:52   #77
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Re: Comfort Index

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For $20k comfort isn't going to be your primary selection criteria.
Let's address this first. Assume I have a bajillion dollars to buy a 33' or a 37' boat. Now answer the question.

Having processed that thought, may I ask where the hell your comment came from?

I have to say I am just shaking my head at the difficult of getting folks to deal with just supplying data instead of opinions.

You do understand that there are truly rich folks out there who are looking at your boat and saying the exact same thing about your puny little hole in the water. How can you POSSIBLY be comfortable on less than 300' of mega yacht. Of course they wouldn't wast their time on this forum talking to you poor folk.
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Old 01-06-2015, 08:55   #78
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Re: Comfort Index

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Originally Posted by snort View Post
Squeteague Sailmakers - Sail Price Calculator

For winches, just google "harken winches" and prices will pop up on the search page.

Lots of other bits and pieces: Garhauer Marine Hardware -11126357
I have to say you missed the point.
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Old 01-06-2015, 08:57   #79
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Re: Comfort Index

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I have to say you missed the point.
Sorry, I was trying to be helpful.
I'm with the others. I don't care to even try anymore.
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Old 01-06-2015, 09:09   #80
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Re: Comfort Index

jwcolby54, you may be looking for an answer that doesn't really exist. I tried to answer your specific question early on in this thread: yes, displacement (size) matters when it comes to issues around motion comfort. But so do a lot of other factors. There is no such thing as a generic 33 or 37-footer so the comparison you're trying to get simply doesn't exist.

Quote:
Is there any web page or spreadsheet that lays out a boat size vs size / cost of some list of parts - Anchor, chain, windless, rigging, sails and so forth?
Answer: No. Why? Because there are too many variables. But you can try and answer these questions for specific boats. If you came here with a specific boat, or even a boat design, you'd get answers.

If you just want to play with raw data, there's a couple of fun websites that allow you to do this:

Sail Calculator Pro v3.54 - 2800+ boats
Hours of fun here doing head-to-head comparisons of the raw specs of thousands of boats. The warning here is that raw specs only tell a small part of the tale, but if you want to play with numbers, it's a great place to look.

Sailboatdata.com is the worlds largest sailboat database.
Another site with specs for thousands of boats. Can't do the head-to-head as with the previous site, but the diagrams give a broader view of the boats you may be interested in.
...

While writing this response I've watched your replies come in. For a fellow who claims to be able to do his own research, and is "highly intelligent" you are demonstrating a phenomenal level of ignorance with your questions and your approach here. You don't even know what you don't know. That is the first step to asking sensible questions.
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Old 01-06-2015, 10:19   #81
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Re: Comfort Index

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Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
While writing this response I've watched your replies come in. For a fellow who claims to be able to do his own research, and is "highly intelligent" you are demonstrating a phenomenal level of ignorance with your questions and your approach here. You don't even know what you don't know. That is the first step to asking sensible questions.
Mike, Thanks for that. I have spent months compiling data. I have written a spreadsheet, with all of the equations for the various numbers given for sailboats. When I look at a boat the first thing I do is see if SailboatData has it. Not always an easy task as often one has to actually look at the shape to match what the owner claims is the boat to what SailBoatData claims is the boat.

I then enter the numbers into the sheet. From that I get a ton of data. I have entered probably 60 boats into the spreadsheet. It's really easy for me to do that.

And I understand (now) the point of the shape and how it works at sea. But I didn't get that from a friendly poster here, I found it reading articles out on the web. Long overhangs, short LWL, all that.

As for my responses, I am just tired of twits and their opinions having nothing to do with anything except their mood that day.

Since I am not seeing any threads that you are starting, I can understand that perhaps you cannot appreciate how irritating some of the nonsense I get is.

I get a guy come in and tells me that "you can't get much boat for $20K" Nothing else, just that. HMMMMMMMM. And that was worth exactly what? Some jackass' opinion. Do I sound irritated? Well that's cause I am.

I get another that comes in and says "he spent $115K for a boat so that he didn't have to work on it". Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm and that was worth exactly what?

I have $20K and some twit comes in and tells me I need to go spend $115K on a boat? And follows that up with "I'm telling you not to buy cheap". Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm and that is worth exactly what? Another jackass' opinion. Take both of those opinions and a dollar to my local mcdonalds and get a cup of coffee.

And let's not forget mr "for $20K comfort isn't going to be your primary consideration".

And all of those responders seem to feel I should bow in gratitude for those responses???

Do you feel that way?

So take 'my responses rolling in' in context to the responses I am receiving, admittedly from a small subset of the (generally) nice population.

I set the ignore flag on mr. "can't buy much'. That is a truly useful feature I have to say. He can insert idiotic comments to his hearts content and I don't see them. We all win!
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Old 01-06-2015, 10:34   #82
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Re: Comfort Index

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Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
Answer: No. Why? Because there are too many variables. But you can try and answer these questions for specific boats. If you came here with a specific boat, or even a boat design, you'd get answers.
OK, so I have looked at 60 boats that I have actually entered in the spreadsheet, hundreds total. Do you truly want me bringing 60 boats in here asking for that.

And lets please be realistic and acknowledge that your response is really not true. There are only a small handful of popular anchors. The differences seem to be bottom type and weight of boat. And how does the type of boat affect the size of the anchor chain? The WEIGHT of the boat affects the anchor chain. The weight of the sail appears to determine the winch size required NOT the specific model of sailboat.

And the size of the sail appears to be determined by the rig (sloop vs xyz) but in any event it is quite possible to generalize that a sloop of 60' is going to require bigger sails than 40' sloop. The difference between any two 60' sloops is trivial compared to the difference between 60', 50', 40' and 30'.

In any event, your answer appears to be no, no such comparison chart out there.

And lol at your on "highly intelligent". Truth be known I'm barely sentient but I try hard.
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Old 01-06-2015, 10:45   #83
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Re: Comfort Index

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Never have been on a 37', but have been on a 33', 34', 36', 39', 43' boat.

I would say the 37' in general is of course going to be more comfort than a 33' boat in all conditions.

BUT it depends a lot on what boat you are talking between to really say how much.

Hope that answers your question to your satisfaction
LOL, yes Sailorboy!

Please ignore my last post.
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Old 01-06-2015, 10:46   #84
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Re: Comfort Index

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Originally Posted by jwcolby54 View Post
...I need data, not opinions...
Then do your own due diligence.
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Old 01-06-2015, 11:06   #85
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Re: Comfort Index

I understand some of your frustration jwcolby54. Believe me, I've had the same (and with some of the same people). But to Sailorboy's credit, he is telling you something that is true: Sometimes the least expensive boat is not the cheapest boat.

This is an open, public forum with people of all backgrounds, skills, expertise and experience. Some people are extremely knowledgeable. Some are twits. Most people have something useful to say, at least some of the time. Sometimes it takes a bit of patience to listen.

As a rule, if you come here seeking information (some are here just to play), then you'll get better results by asking specific questions. Your questions demonstrate an early level of understanding regarding cruising boats. That's not a criticism, it's just an (apparent) fact. We all started in your shoes. If you aren't willing to listen to other people's thoughts and opinions, then you're better off not posting here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwcolby54 View Post
OK, so I have looked at 60 boats that I have actually entered in the spreadsheet, hundreds total. Do you truly want me bringing 60 boats in here asking for that.
If you want useful answer, then sure ... one at a time. Or group them by design. It's not like the Internet is going to run out of bytes . But I'm still not clear what it is you're asking. As a general rule, bigger boats will be more comfortable. But that is only one factor. Isn't this what you asked about?

If you want to know what it costs to operate each of your 60 boats, well, I suggest you read through the many "how much does it cost" threads. There is no single answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwcolby54 View Post
And how does the type of boat affect the size of the anchor chain? The WEIGHT of the boat affects the anchor chain. The weight of the sail appears to determine the winch size required NOT the specific model of sailboat.
Windage, hull shape, rig, anchoring depth, and displacement (and probably a bunch of other factors) ALL affect how you set up your anchoring system. Your rode is only part of the system. I've never heard of sail weight affecting winch sizing. Sail area, type of sail, sailing location ... all these things affect choice of winch.
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Old 01-06-2015, 12:29   #86
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Re: Comfort Index

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Originally Posted by jwcolby54 View Post
OK, so I have looked at 60 boats that I have actually entered in the spreadsheet, hundreds total. Do you truly want me bringing 60 boats in here asking for that.

And lets please be realistic and acknowledge that your response is really not true. There are only a small handful of popular anchors. The differences seem to be bottom type and weight of boat. And how does the type of boat affect the size of the anchor chain? The WEIGHT of the boat affects the anchor chain. The weight of the sail appears to determine the winch size required NOT the specific model of sailboat.

And the size of the sail appears to be determined by the rig (sloop vs xyz) but in any event it is quite possible to generalize that a sloop of 60' is going to require bigger sails than 40' sloop. The difference between any two 60' sloops is trivial compared to the difference between 60', 50', 40' and 30'.

In any event, your answer appears to be no, no such comparison chart out there.

And lol at your on "highly intelligent". Truth be known I'm barely sentient but I try hard.
As I implied a couple of times asking for your experience, but don't think I got an answer...maybe I missed in the arguing..so

Too factors would play the major role in deciding between a 33 and 37. Which best fits your needs and which you can sail the best. Generally larger brings more comfort, but also is typically more difficult to handle-not just the boat, but equipment too. And, if any boat is beyond your current ability then there's no comfort on it.

Now as to all those giving you answers you don't want, why choose to waste effort then arguing with them. Why not just concentrate on the answers you feel are helpful. To question their motives serves no purpose.

Honestly, your distaste in their suggestions that require more money makes me really wonder if it's their post you don't like or you just don't like people with more money. It doesn't really matter. If you feel their posts are not helpful, go to the next post. This isn't a debate event where a judge rewards the one who debated best a ribbon. No argument here is ever won or lost. Both sides always think they won.
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Old 01-06-2015, 12:34   #87
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Re: comfort index

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwcolby54 View Post
.................
.......... Is there any web page or spreadsheet that lays out a boat size vs size / cost of some list of parts - Anchor, chain, windless, rigging, sails and so forth? That would be very helpful.
jwcolby, It's apparent that you are quite frustrated by not receiving a clear and simple answer to your question as quoted above. Several people have attempted to explain why there is no such spreadsheet or data chart and if you were to find one that was an attempt to lay out this relationship between boat size and cost, then it would be flawed.

Please accept the consensus given without any malice. The clear and simple answer is no.
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Old 01-06-2015, 12:51   #88
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Re: Comfort Index

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Originally Posted by leftbrainstuff View Post
Comfort within the known limits of human sensitivity is very subjective. NASA has published good data on human comfort based on displacement, velocity, acceleration and jerk (rate of change of acceleration). This data correlates very well car motion.

But in sailing you have a much greater broadband input where wave superposition creates very different motions. In short I haven't seen any comfort data for small vessels. So any so called comfort rating is unlikely to help you.

How you load your vessel, when you decide to sail and how you balance it with sail will have more impact on comfort. For $20k comfort isn't going to be your primary selection criteria.

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To the OP (JWColby54):

I have read almost all of the responses to this thread, including your most recent dismissal of several members advice.

What follows is written in a truly friendly tone of voice, and with the sole intent to help you, especially since you are a new member here, and because you evidently have an interest in learning about boats.

First, I am going to post a copy of your initial question that opened up this thread:

JWColby54: "I am 60, single, not wealthy, and want to liveaboard, and actually cruise. I am looking at $20k to buy which puts me solidly in 70s era boats. I can get a 33' in good condition and can afford the upkeep.

I would prefer something around 37'. My question is about handling and feel. How different is 33' at 11000 lbs vs 37' at 17000 lbs? Motion in weather. Motion in calm on hook. Safety in weather.

trying to decide whether to just do it on a 33' or keep looking for a 37ish."

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While I still don't know how much experience you have sailing on sailboats (not navy ships), and I don't recall that being answered in this thread, I do think the answer to that question has significant bearing on this discussion.

So, I will ask the question again this way:

"Please describe your experience on sailboats and most importantly while sailing on sailboats. How much have you done, and what types of boats, and what sizes and where?"

Note: This is NOT a challenge and is not intended to diminish you. It is intended to give the others here a point of reference as to your experience on sailboats (not navy vessels or powerboats).
_______________

As you recently joined the forum, I recall that you wrote a "meet & greet" post. In that post (I had to look today to refresh my memory), you wrote:

JWColby54: "I have never sailed, though I have been on sailboats, and even "steered" one. I do not suffer motion sickness.

I Intend to buy a boat, take sailing lessons, sail up and down the ICW getting experience, work on the boat (I am handy) to get it truly ready, and on my 65th bday head out (Brazil sounds good)."

_______________

Why is this important? Why do I suggest you post that here now or when you start a thread in the future?

Because your point of reference (as a newbie sailboat sailor) and goal (for sailing) matters, as it does for anyone asking such basic questions about boats.

Your prior experience (or lack of it) on sailboats matters more importantly than experience you have on other types of vessels (especially large navy ships such as an aircraft carrier).
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Others here have tried to address the topic of "comfort" from many angles. But, it really boils down to a personal experience of "comfort" or "discomfort." Some have pointed out that mere "data" is not a good way to look for a comfortable boat. In fact, many find the dependence upon "data" as laughable or ridiculous when discussing something like "comfort."

Why?
What one person finds "comfortable" about a boat may be very different for another person who finds it "uncomfortable."

My Friendly Suggestion: Step away from the database/computer and go get on many sailboats and experience what different boats feel like while sailing.

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Up above, I quoted a comment made by one of the many members of this forum whose knowledge and experience I respect.

Why?
Because I think it is unfortunate when a new member such as yourself enters into forum and takes on an argumentative position, especially when they are arguing from a relative lack of knowledge and experience when compared to others who do have experience. This does not mean I think "old members" are necessarily right on all things. It simply means that a new-to-this-forum and sailing "newbie" often does not know enough, despite reading a few or many books, because they do not yet have the real "been there done that" kind of practical experience sailing a sailboat.

Looking over the same comments you dismissed up above (in the thread) I think many of them make perfect sense to me, based on my experience of sailing on, stepping on, sleeping on, and looking over many boats over many years.

I don't know it all, so I try hard to learn from those who have some experiences I don't have. So, I think it is plain foolish to dismiss others who seem to be trying to help you in this thread. More importantly, they are also trying to help others who may be reading this thread today or in the future, just as my comments here are intended to help you and others in the future who may read this thread.

I believe what he (Leftbrainstuff ) pointed out is relevant and also very important. Perhaps you did not see it that way because of the way it was worded. So I wil rephrase it a bit to fit the situation (your previously stated goals to sail down to South America) and hope you understand it:

Leftbrainstuff wrote:
"For $20k comfort isn't going to be your primary selection criteria."

I would say it this way:
""For $20k comfort should NOT be your primary selection criteria, but current seaworthiness and current condition should be."

But his comments were not the only "good advice" you got in this thread. Many others (Snort, Mike, TerraNova, Sailorboy1, etc.) added something to the mix. Much of it is worthwhile if you know what to look for, based on knowing sailboats more than a newbie. Obviously a newbie may miss that.

Anyway, I will close my long post here by wishing you the best of luck, and you may certainly add me to your "ignore" list if you wish to ignore this too.

Just be aware, that the people who are willing to help you as a newcomer to the forum and a newbie sailor, may stop doing so, if you continue to dismiss them or seem oblivious to good sense suggestions.
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Old 01-06-2015, 13:08   #89
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Re: Comfort Index

Thanks to all responders. I am of course in an early level of understanding. And my frustration is less with the lack of data, than the predominance of certain types of expressed opinions.

May I say that there is a huge difference between "I could not be comfortable in a boat of less than XX feet" (absolutely a valid thing to say) and "You can't get much of a boat with $20K" (???????)

Step back a minute and just look at those two statements.

One says a "speaking for myself" thing, the other says... well...

To a person that only has $20K it speaks volumes, none of it nice.

First it simply dismisses any attempt by any one trying to buy a boat on a budget as not worthy of even talking to.

Second it says "I have a lot more than that and I don't have a clue what it means to not have a lot more than that."

And lastly it appears to say "and I really don't like having to wade through threads from you."

And in the absence of anything else, it just sounds disdainful.

Someone in a thread somewhere posted about the very first yacht club, in England. A place where even money won't get you in.

Like that. Is that CruisersForum?

There are folks to whom all that stuff matters. And a response like I mentioned, with absolutely nothing else in the post, sounds exactly like that. "Please go away. I'm not going to just come out and say so but if you only have $20K then you probably belong over on THAT forum."

So if ya'all want to be inclusive, if you want folks with only $20K to come here and discuss their dreams (and very real life plans), then maybe it would be good to think about what you sound like when you answer the questions.



And if this response is poking you (specifically) in the ribs, then then maybe it would be good to think about what you (specifically) sound like when you answer the questions.



And now I will apologize for calling anyone a twit or jackass.
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Old 01-06-2015, 13:50   #90
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Re: Comfort Index

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Originally Posted by jwcolby54 View Post
Thanks to all responders. I am of course in an early level of understanding. And my frustration is less with the lack of data, than the predominance of certain types of expressed opinions.

.................................................. ..
jwcolby, Please look at the "predominance" of the responses to your thread. Twenty four differenct members have responded to your concerns and only two fit the description of your complaint. Most have been accepting of your goals and supporting your quest although pointing out a variety of opinions. If you are unable to recognize the "predominance" of those that support you, we might develop the impression that your only true goal is to complain.

Focus on your mission and your large group of supporters.
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