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Old 29-05-2015, 10:29   #46
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Re: comfort index

Like Terra Nova says above. Just plan for it. In fact I had to come in bow first just the other day because wind conditions were challenging for a stern to docking. Even though bow was into the slip, I just made sure to land the stern first.

Once the stern was alongside I used the same spring I would have if I was pointed the other way. It wasn't a hard adaptation to make.

I watched a neighbour with a new to him Columbia 29 make the dock in calm winds the other day, a crew of 20 couldn't have made the guy a competent boat handler.

First time I came into my current marina I had people running to me with panicked looks on there faces when they saw me spin to back in my full keeled double ender in. They were shocked when I put her exactly where I wanted to and never so much as stood up until I tossed my spring around a cleat.

Now when they see me coming in on a windy day, they stroll down and offer a drink once I've got a couple of lines on.

A large crew is no substitute for good seamanship.

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Old 29-05-2015, 10:45   #47
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Re: comfort index

'continuing with these thoughts about docking a somewhat larger boat, or any boat for that matter, I'm not agreeing with the avice that suggests a proper procedure such as stern in first, bow in first, or use a particular spring line first, - stepping off with a line or tossing a loop around a piling or cleat.

The only details that I can agree witth is Terra Nova's advice to plan ahead in preparation with fenders and lines, etc. I also prepare lines at locations where I'm not expecting to need them, just so I'm ready for the unexpected.

As far as the details as to the approach, warpping, springs and such that all needs to be sorted out according to the amount and direction of wind and current. We find what works for us is a custom plan that fits the conditions. Sometimes you don't want fenders or you don't want a line tossed to someone ashore.
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Old 29-05-2015, 11:18   #48
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Re: comfort index

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'continuing with these thoughts about docking a somewhat larger boat, or any boat for that matter, I'm not agreeing with the avice that suggests a proper procedure such as stern in first, bow in first, or use a particular spring line first, - stepping off with a line or tossing a loop around a piling or cleat.

The only details that I can agree witth is Terra Nova's advice to plan ahead in preparation with fenders and lines, etc. I also prepare lines at locations where I'm not expecting to need them, just so I'm ready for the unexpected.

As far as the details as to the approach, warpping, springs and such that all needs to be sorted out according to the amount and direction of wind and current. We find what works for us is a custom plan that fits the conditions. Sometimes you don't want fenders or you don't want a line tossed to someone ashore.
I'm by nomeans suggesting stern first is the right procedure for everybody. I'm just saying if you know your seamanship you can find a system that works.

No where in my post did I suggest my typical approach was the right approach for any body but me.

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Old 29-05-2015, 11:20   #49
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Re: comfort index

Arghhhh

I think comfort is all relative, to some extent. Some of us prefer short jerky moves of cats and flat bottomed monos, others prefer the endless roll of the classic.

One way to see how they differ is to spend a couple of hours sitting on the shore watching boats in a rolly anchorage. Flat water ones with tugs and pilot boats passing at regular intervals are best. I have one such anchorage at hand here, maybe 5 minutes from our dock. I like sitting on the seawall, watching ...

I think cats roll least and settle first. They do have more rapid movements. You get shaken but you hardly get rolled.

Flat bottom boats seem to roll more than cats but not beyond what looks to be acceptable: Bavaria-likes, Bene-likes, etc. this kind of plastic fantastic. The newest with plenty of beam aft and hard chines seem to roll even less.

Plastick classics from the 70'ies and 80'ies seem to roll from considerably to abominably.

Old classics with deep hulls and little plane keel seem to roll beyond what seems bearable. They will roll like for ages and they tend to start with the second roll looking like (???) beyond 30 degrees from vertical.

So this is what I gather from my picknick. Go to your shore, sit some, watch some.

Now, on the water, I found downwind being mostly like anchored: cats roll not, flats roll some, classics roll heaps and tubs roll madly. The situation may change dramatically upwind - now fine entry hulls seem to be the most comforatable as seem heavy tubs if the go slow enough. Displacement seems to have the upper hand too - I would always chose the heavier boat upwind if they were to be of the same hull design.

Bueno. My two cents.

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Old 29-05-2015, 13:22   #50
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Re: comfort index

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Bigger boats are harder to single hand.

???

Is that by definition, a cast in concrete sailboat thing?

I haven't found that to be the case across the board; a tiny boat that doesn't single-hand well can be different from a bigger boat that's easily single-handed. In my experience, single-handed docking (for example) is more about easy and quick access to cleats, side decks, helm controls, etc. No matter what size boat (within reasonable ranges).

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Old 29-05-2015, 16:47   #51
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Re: comfort index

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Originally Posted by FamilyVan View Post
I'm by nomeans suggesting stern first is the right procedure for everybody. I'm just saying if you know your seamanship you can find a system that works.

No where in my post did I suggest my typical approach was the right approach for any body but me.

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My comments were generic and not in response to anything that you specificlly posted. My thought that the best docking plan can not follow a rigid rubric is not related to your post; however, I would think that the right approach for you, or anyone, would be a plan that changes according to the conditions.
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Old 29-05-2015, 19:19   #52
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Re: comfort index

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I am 60, single, not wealthy, and want to liveaboard, and actually cruise. I am looking at $20k to buy which puts me solidly in 70s era boats. I can get a 33' in good condition and can afford the upkeep.

I would prefer something around 37'. My question is about handling and feel. How different is 33' at 11000 lbs vs 37' at 17000 lbs? Motion in weather. Motion in calm on hook. Safety in weather.

trying to decide whether to just do it on a 33' or keep looking for a 37ish.
We have 2 steel boats, 33' and 44'. I have single handed each for about 3,000 miles.

I would prefer the 33'er if alone, the 44'er if with my Wife.

But then our displacements are 16,000 and 40,000 respectfully. Lengths with bow sprints and vane gears are more like 37 and 52.

Motion in calm on hook is no issue.
Motion in weather is harder to judge simply because you can't step from one boat to the next in identical conditions. My sense is the big boat is more stable and solid, it squishes waves the small boat pounds on.

Safet in weather is another issue. On first glance the big boat is safer. OTOH the sails are bigger and harder to reef and manhandle. Try putting up a main in 20 knots with no auto pilot. Tons of fun. It much easier, and safer to do that on the smaller boat. The smaller boat is less intimidating, and I suspect easier to handle well in extremes.

But....each boat is different. Depending upon the specific boat, and where you want to sail, and how, the answers may be different.

BTW I'M 64 and started sailing 10 years ago.

I've read Single Handed Sailing and his recommendation is for a 33'ish boat, fairly heavy cutter. I recommend this book highly. I think you will find many more questions you had not considered in the reading.

Singlehanded Sailing: The Experiences and Techniques of the Lone Voyagers: Richard Henderson: 9780070281646: Amazon.com: Books
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Old 30-05-2015, 18:11   #53
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Re: comfort index

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Of course you are right, except with a limited budget 33' is cheaper to maintain compared to 37' if both are about the same condition and equipment. .
I'm gonna save you a ton of money:

If the maintenance cost difference between a 33' boat and 37' is too much for you, don't get a boat of any size!
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Old 30-05-2015, 21:23   #54
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comfort index

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I'm gonna save you a ton of money:



If the maintenance cost difference between a 33' boat and 37' is too much for you, don't get a boat of any size!

Other than commerce, food or rising water, who among us needs a boat?

The old WestSail 32 inspired many dreams and many sales (play on words here)


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Old 30-05-2015, 21:50   #55
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Re: comfort index

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I'm gonna save you a ton of money:

If the maintenance cost difference between a 33' boat and 37' is too much for you, don't get a boat of any size!
Yea but!

In engineering we call it 'feature creep' We get a spec. 'This is exactly what we want'. And then when the project is well under way... 'Hold on, we also need this other thing'.

So from a certain perspective, the size by definition limits 'feature creep'.

Pretty hard to find a place to put a washer dryer on a 33 footer. Of course a 'washer dryer' requires a generator... and so it begins.

But that does in fact bring up an interesting question. Everyone says 'the bigger the boat the bigger the maintenance costs'. And so in fact a 37' will cost more than a 33'.

And if the difference between a 33' and a 37' is not 'significant' then what is significant. I think this gets back to this whole concept of 'Don't play in our pool if you aren't wealthy'. And lots of decidedly not wealthy folks are splashing around out there. There are folks quite happily splashing around out there that made a wise choice to go 33' instead of 37'. Or 37' instead of 45'.
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Old 31-05-2015, 04:52   #56
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Re: comfort index

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Yea but! ...............
.................
Pretty hard to find a place to put a washer dryer on a 33 footer. Of course a 'washer dryer' requires a generator... and so it begins.
............................
It may be that your mention of the washer dryer was just an example to describe this "feature creep", but let's assume you were actually considering adding these big appliances. Someone living aboard a boat and off to work each day would need more clothing maintenance, but then those at work each day are tied to the shore an there are laundry facilities ashore.

Those cruising have far less need for maintaining a "wardrobe". Washer dryers have a single function and cruisers do best with items that have multiple functions. A cruiser can wash a week's worth of clothes with a bucket, an oar & a piece of line and then still find many other uses for the bucket, oar & line.

You have a strong argument with "feature creep" that would cause someone to choose a larger boat, but the washer dryer example is from the mindset of those that live in houses.
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Old 31-05-2015, 13:39   #57
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Re: comfort index

If you have to have a small boat because you can not control you "feature creep", well
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Old 31-05-2015, 13:50   #58
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Re: comfort index

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.... We've been "actually cruising" liveaboards for 43 years, but we select when and where we cruise by conditions that please us. We make this choice beyond safety, but for comfort. Our choices don't limit our ability to cruise from Maine to the Bahamas. Today's weather forecasting will allow prudent decisions to keep you away from big storms and choices not to beat into heavy weather. You can still be subject to short duration thunder storms, but those can be dealt with and soon end. ....
This is the single best piece of usable information.
Non-judgmental.
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Usable because of experience.
Good on you.

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Old 31-05-2015, 17:03   #59
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Re: comfort index

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And if the difference between a 33' and a 37' is not 'significant' then what is significant.
Are we talking LWL or LOA?

I think LWL is.

I can imagine like 100% extra displacement, no?

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Old 31-05-2015, 19:00   #60
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Re: comfort index

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...I can imagine like 100% extra displacement, no?...
Along with twice the displacement is a lot of hardware costing more than twice the price, like winches, for example.
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