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Old 01-05-2014, 10:23   #106
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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Originally Posted by weavis View Post
Here is the issue I see.
  • Not everyone who contributes to CF speaks English.
  • Not everyone who contributes to CF has good communication skills
  • Not everyone who contributes to CF is a Democrat.
  • NOt everyone at CF is as nice as they think they are.
On that basis, it is imperative to make the effort to understand what a person is trying to say the best we can instead of refusing to view it. I do think some valid points were made in the post which were in response to previous posts.
It does not mean I agree with them.
It means I attempted to see what another CF members experience/opinion is.
If we dont do that........ then we are insisting our opinion is the only one that matters.
It might well be the correct viewpoint is ours, but always good to see if the other person has a valid point or it negates the point of having a forum.

I have to listen to complaints all day. I know what I can do and what I cant, but sometimes, just sometimes something is said that helps the situation or clarifies an issue.

Its a courtesy we owe to someone who is brave enough to voice an opinion.
It's just as important to point out when people could do a better job communicating because as noble as your sentiment is...I'm betting better than 95% of the people who came across that post, stopped reading after the 1st sentance.

How about a constructive idea: If you are really concerned about liveaboards being abused, take a proactive approach.

If you just sit there and do nothing while people abuse the system until the land dwellers get ticked off, all you can do is whine about how downtrodden you are when they enact rules against all liveaboards.

Instead, organize the local liveaboards and go to the local officials with solutions that address the underlying problem rather than just lumping everyone together. DO IT BEFORE THE LOCALS GET ANNOYED WITH THE BOAT BUMS. Some key issue to address:
- It can't violate other laws or constitutional rights.
- It has to be a simple low effort rule. If the police require hours of documentation and multiple vists before they can do anything, it won't happen.
- Ideally, it should be make it easy for the problem liveaboards to comply. Idealy, you goal is not to run people out of town.
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Old 01-05-2014, 10:31   #107
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

Taking Richardson bay with its 100 anchor out boats for an example. If you ask the general public or even the dockside yachty crowd which boats anchored are eyesores, the most likely response is all of them.

Yes there are some boats out there that are derelict, maybe 10-15 percent. About 20 percent are in good condition. Another 40 percent are fair to good, but generally clean. One large aluminum ketch has the masts missing and paint peeling from the side. The woman who lives about it could be suzy housemaker or your next door neighbor.

By land folk standards all the anchorouts are a problem. But well over half are just average folks and not slobs, bums, druggies, etc. Yet the perceived notion is that all are bums. Myself included.

Sorry, but most are just poor from happenstance. Yes there are some bad apples but they are more the exception then the rule.

Mind you, I rarely visit Sausalito, mainly to visit the west marine there or pick up friends at the boat ramp for a day sail on the bay. Its a bit too noisy/busy and the ferry wakes make it delightfully rollie...

Part of human behavior is that people not like oneself are considered different/ inferior in some way or another. Its a recessive herd/pack behavior that is somewhat latent in some and more extreme in others. But everyone does it to one extent or another.

So its completely natural human behavior to put down others. Yet I find that everyone has a story to tell and that the majority of "bum's really are just average people. Least as normal as the folks in marina's.

Myself, I believe everyone is different and no one person is more important then another. Alas, society has always been rather Darwinian. Luckily the current social/economic structure is unstable and will self correct over time. Interesting times.
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Old 01-05-2014, 10:40   #108
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
......................
Instead, organize the local liveaboards ...............
This is a nice thought, but liveaboards (myself included) are characteristically independant, difficult to enlist into a group, and almost impossible to organize.
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Old 01-05-2014, 10:45   #109
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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Originally Posted by sailorchic34 View Post
Taking Richardson bay with its 100 anchor out boats for an example. If you ask the general public or even the dockside yachty crowd which boats anchored are eyesores, the most likely response is all of them. I read somewhere that only boats with pink trim are universally considered an eyesore


So its completely natural human behavior to put down others. Yet I find that everyone has a story to tell and that the majority of "bum's really are just average people. Least as normal as the folks in marina's. I think most people actually consider living on boat romantic and don't consider everyone doing it a bum. I feel people mostly consider bums as bums and we know what they mean.
Like most rules and laws this topic is the result of a few bad apples that ruin it for everyone else and it is no different than living on land.
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Old 01-05-2014, 10:48   #110
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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This is a nice thought, but liveaboards (myself included) are characteristically independant, difficult to enlist into a group, and almost impossible to organize.
Much like herding cats, which is impossible...
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Old 01-05-2014, 10:50   #111
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
It's just as important to point out when people could do a better job communicating because as noble as your sentiment is...I'm betting better than 95% of the people who came across that post, stopped reading after the 1st sentance.

How about a constructive idea: If you are really concerned about liveaboards being abused, take a proactive approach.

If you just sit there and do nothing while people abuse the system until the land dwellers get ticked off, all you can do is whine about how downtrodden you are when they enact rules against all liveaboards.

Instead, organize the local liveaboards and go to the local officials with solutions that address the underlying problem rather than just lumping everyone together. DO IT BEFORE THE LOCALS GET ANNOYED WITH THE BOAT BUMS. Some key issue to address:
- It can't violate other laws or constitutional rights.
- It has to be a simple low effort rule. If the police require hours of documentation and multiple vists before they can do anything, it won't happen.
- Ideally, it should be make it easy for the problem liveaboards to comply. Idealy, you goal is not to run people out of town.
Heres an even more constructive idea.
read what I wrote.

I never said I had any interest in doing something that I may or may not agree with.
And as for 95% of people not reading.......... well maybe, JUST maybe that is the problem.
Id rather be the 5% that tried to see what the issue comprises of from the other side regardless how hard it is to extract.
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Old 01-05-2014, 10:50   #112
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

For those that get pissed off very quickly..


A very personal revelation……


Ive come to the conclusion that Im an A.H.cruiser. I don’t own a fancy boat or try to pick fights with other cruisers, or go out of my way to enforce my will... but Im an A.H.cruiser nevertheless because internally I have a very rigid set of rules of how a person should behave at all times, and if you cross the boundaries, you will only be forgiven after the Sun has turned into an icebox.

The rules thing on life? Im ok with that, That’s how a society works, a set of standards we are required to meet to be considered a decent and valued member. There arises an issue when a person starts making private rules, Rules that only you know and have agreement with and stick to, and use to judge others.

How were those callous, discourteous rule breakers informed of the law? Was there a sign above the entrance to the marina that says “Use the berth in front of the office for mooring whilst making enquiries rather than someone elses"? or “Please stand to the side of the walking escalator at airports if someone wants to pass you?” Did they take a class on the appropriate volume when using a cell phone in a public place? Some of us agree on these unspoken rules, sure, but we never consider that the offending party has no idea they're even transgressing. Hence the really confused look on their faces as I dive-tackle them into the salad bar for using their fingers instead of the tongs -- which are right friggin’ there, seriously.

If you're going to get pissed at somebody because he beats you off the line to the marina exit,, stop and consider: Does he even know he's racing your boat, or is he simply trying to race a savage case of diarrhea to a safe, non-judgmental waste space to release the mass into the sea? That dude talking to the girl you like at the marina bar -- does he know you consider that a punchable offense? Does he even know you were talking to her earlier?

Until you reach the point where you can liberate yourself from your own self-righteous rule sets, at least you can treat it as ignorance and not disrespect if people break them. If they're really obvious rules, however -- if somebody, for example, merges onto the Motorway at 35 mph without so much as looking -- feel free to unleash the middle finger, both if so inclined.


Legend: A. H. (a$$ Hole)
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Old 01-05-2014, 10:51   #113
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

You can live for free on the water as much as you want - just don't do it where other people are paying to maintain everything. I would pay a lot more for a condo downtown than I would for something out in the boonies. The same idea applies to boats. If you want to anchor near a town or city center, expect to pay for it. If you want to anchor off the shore of some remote area, I'm guessing that you could spend months there before anyone even noticed you.
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Old 01-05-2014, 10:53   #114
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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I read somewhere that only boats with pink trim are universally considered an eyesore But only by 50% of the population

Like most rules and laws this topic is the result of a few bad apples that ruin it for everyone else and it is no different than living on land.
Thank you for making that point.
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Old 01-05-2014, 11:00   #115
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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You can live for free on the water as much as you want - just don't do it where other people are paying to maintain everything. I would pay a lot more for a condo downtown than I would for something out in the boonies. The same idea applies to boats. If you want to anchor near a town or city center, expect to pay for it. If you want to anchor off the shore of some remote area, I'm guessing that you could spend months there before anyone even noticed you.
But wait I pay taxes too. I pay to maintain roads and schools. Not a lot, but its there never the less.

Sorry, I can't seeing paying to anchor. Paying for a dubious mooring ball yes. But anchor, nope. One reason I'll be avoiding Washington state, besides that rain thingy ya'll have.

Luckily there are vast areas that are not towns or cities, even on the east coast.
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Old 01-05-2014, 11:15   #116
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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You can live for free on the water as much as you want - just don't do it where other people are paying to maintain everything. I would pay a lot more for a condo downtown than I would for something out in the boonies. The same idea applies to boats. If you want to anchor near a town or city center, expect to pay for it. If you want to anchor off the shore of some remote area, I'm guessing that you could spend months there before anyone even noticed you.
In Econ 101 they teach a concept called 'the law of supply and demand'.

This is the real issue and has little to do with political ideology and more to do with carrying capacity. When Columbus landed in the New World he described the harbor where he anchored as having "room sufficient for all the ships of Christendom". On reaching Cuba he described the harbor as large enough for the entire Spanish navy.

It is all to easy to say if you have the big bucks you can find a place to stay, but try getting a slip in popular places (especially in season).

I grew up in Miami in the 1950s and lived in the Keys in the 1960s and 1970s. Back in the day it was no problem finding a good place to anchor. Now not only are there a lot more boats than back then but I often feel safer anchoring with greater distance than normal; especially if I see some guy in a Wellcraft go to the bow and throw over a under weight knock off Danforth with no chain and start drinking with out backing down.

The real problem is not the poor folks looking for a place to stay or the rich folks wanting a good view from their back yards. There are simply too many peeps, both rich and poor, and too few places for them.
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Old 01-05-2014, 12:28   #117
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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This is a nice thought, but liveaboards (myself included) are characteristically independant, difficult to enlist into a group, and almost impossible to organize.
Rome didn't rule the ancient world because the individual Roman soldiers were stronger or faster. They ruled because they had an incredible ability to work as a team.

While I don't expect liveaboards to suddenly become an organized cohesive geopolitical group, if what you say is true, the battle is already lost. If you won't even consider joining forces for the common good, the best you can hope for is to keep your head down until they come to tow your boat away.

It's cool to say you are a non-conformist but it comes with disadvantages.
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Old 01-05-2014, 12:44   #118
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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Rome didn't rule the ancient world because the individual Roman soldiers were stronger or faster. They ruled because they had an incredible ability to work as a team.

While I don't expect liveaboards to suddenly become an organized cohesive geopolitical group, if what you say is true, the battle is already lost. If you won't even consider joining forces for the common good, the best you can hope for is to keep your head down until they come to tow your boat away.

It's cool to say you are a non-conformist but it comes with disadvantages.
You leap from me saying that it's difficult to saying that I would not consider the common good and you suggest that I say I'm a non-conformist. I personally am frequently voicing my opinion; actively expressing my views to authorities and I vote.

I would still stand by my claim that liveaboards are independent and difficult to organize. This is an observation that does not reject your honorable plea.
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Old 01-05-2014, 12:58   #119
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

By their very nature, people that live outside conventional society whether it be in Alaska or on a boat are usually loners, they aren't the type to facebook and join into Church socials etc.
I suspect many live they way they do in order to escape things like that.
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Old 01-05-2014, 13:12   #120
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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Wifey B: I sure as heck wish Coops would turn the chickens loose.
We have chickens....

If Coop lets the chickens out of the coop, the chickens will poop all over the place and sometimes a hawk, fox, or coyote gets a chicken dinner. The chickens can also peck the heck out of you. We do not have a rooster since they not only peck and poop but make loud noises and can spur you.

Me thinks it would be best for all if Coop kept the chickens cooped up. Well, as much as Coop can keep the chicken cooped up. Herding Chickens is not real fun either...

Later,
Dan
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