Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

[sailorchic34]

Originally Posted by fstbttms

Jeezus, you just spout this stuff as if it were gospel and you had proof. But it is merely, all of it, your inexpert opinion. Hell, you don't even keep your boat on the Bay. I can tell you that all the numbers you've tossed about in the above post are inaccurate. That's something that, as an engineer, one would think you'd be more careful about. And then there's this "holier than thou because I'm an anchor-out liveaboard" attitude. Unbelievable.

LOL, nice ad hominem. Can you provide specific references to reports that differ from my out of my butt "numbers".
Unlike many folks with boats I actually sail my boat about the bay and beyond a bit. So I get to Clipper cove, Richardson bay, paridice cove, Angel IS and china camp and sail about many many times a year. I also was in Marina bay for three years and have lived in other marinas for months and years.

Never said I was an expert (except in some fields of engineering) but I do sail a lot all over the place. I do anchor all over the bay and delta. Check any marina on a weekend and 90-95% of the boats don't move. At marina's I've stayed at, most boats (60-70% based on what I've seen) never move in a year. Some and by some I mean more then 30 percent have not moved in many years.

Today on the 4th of July weekend, there have been zero boats by where I'm anchored. Last year I was at the same spot and all of three or four boats (fishing and or ski) went by. Mind you I'm not in a busy area, but then it is a holiday weekend.

You say my numbers are not accurate and they are not. But they are approximate, As to "holier than thou", I'm so not holy. But I am out and about a bit, not at home, somewhere watching the telly and dreaming about being on a boat. I've been a liveaboard and a sailor for 10 year or so. I don't just liveaboard, I move about and see whats around the next corner.

From my personal perspective there were more folks anchoring out in 2007-2008 by at least 200 percent (My Opinion and it's a conservative number), then what I see out and about now a days.

[fstbttms]

Originally Posted by sailorchic34

Can you provide specific references to reports that differ from my out of my butt "numbers".

I don't have to. It is not incumbent upon me to prove you wrong. You made the claims, therefore it is you who must provide supporting evidence. You don't get to make a statement and say, "This is fact, merely because I said it is."

That said, a simple count of marina slips tells us that there are approximately 20,000 boats berthed in the greater Bay Area. That fact alone means that pretty much every number you stated is inaccurate.

[SV THIRD DAY]

ya...what do you think this is a Copper Coat thread?

Ha ha ah

[fstbttms]

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

ya...what do you think this is a Copper Coat thread?

Good one

[sailorchic34]

You know I hear that 20,000 slips number batted about. but for the life of me I can't find that many slips, let along that many boats in slips. The number I got by counting marina slips from the various websites was about 13,500. Though I'm sure I missed a few. Of course not all slips are full either.

You know I did not state it was a fact, just my opinion based on what I see around the bay and delta over the last eight years.

[fstbttms]

Originally Posted by sailorchic34

The number I got by counting marina slips from the various websites was about 13,500.

Even if that number were accurate (which it is not), it still means the numbers you posted were wrong.

Originally Posted by sailorchic34

You know I did not state it was a fact, just my opinion based on what I see around the bay and delta over the last eight years.

Really?

Originally Posted by sailorchic34

...the facts are that most boats in every marina rarely move in any year. Of the one's that do move over 1/2 are racing and don't keep a serious anchor on their boat. Take the racers off the bay and well over 1/2 the boats go away. With 10,000 boats, some are going to be used. Generally 5% a weekend.

That reads pretty much like you expected us to take your word as gospel. It wasn't until I called you out on it that you even uttered the word, "opinion".

[sailorchic34]

Oh that. That IS a fact! .

Most boats really don't get used much. Using using my 10k boats and 5 percent number that would be about 500 boats a weekend. As many race, you see lots of the same boats out week after week., I think 500 boats sounds rather reasonable, which on any weekend would be at least in the ballpark based on what I see anyway. Many times there would be less.

Yes a few busy race weekends might see more boats on the bay, but on average it's about 5% of my 10k number.

Getting back to the thread discussion, there are not a lot of folks anchoring out on the weekend on the bay. By anchoring I mean over night. between aquatic park, Richardson bay, clipper cove, paradise cove and china camp, there is less then 30 total that anchor total overnight on any weekend night. That's the high number BTW.

Again just based on my simple observations over the years. It was more before the great recession, but afterwords, it fell like a rock. I'm not counting angel island as that's paid moorings and they do get 10-20 boats a weekend or so, more at the dock, but that's just daytime.

[fstbttms]

I give up

[valhalla360]

To summarize the 41 pages:
- Liveaboards & Cruisers: Locals generally like them.
- Bums living on derelick boats: Locals generally don't like them.

Apply moral judgements as you see fit.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by fstbttms

I give up

But why? Really.

sc34 is offering her opinion, so stated (if needlessly redundant), and her OBSERVATIONS, so clearly stated, too.

If it's 5% of 10,000 or 2 1/2% of 20,000 does it make any difference?

The reality is that only a handful of the boats that are stored in the water in marinas around the Bay are actively sailed on a regular basis.

I think we can all agree on that one, can't we?

[Wrong]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson
1 Maybe then, but here's a 2009 report from Latitude 38 itself/themselves (?) Latitude 38 - 'Lectronic Latitude Scroll down, the picture doesn't show the entire field, but there are at least five boats in the photo, and two are below the water!

2 I anchored there frequently, like once a month back then, and I did see more, many more, than you noted.

Pictures are worth a thousand words.

Here's one I took in 2008. My boat's nearest to the beach on left. Probably lots of folks who used Clipper Cove every other week or so who cursed my boat because it was anchored in a prime spot they felt entitled to.... Unless I was in Sausalito of course.

[weavis]

Amazing.

Y'Awl have managed to turn this in to a "mine is bigger than yours" thread.

If all liveaboards are as anal as you lot, no wonder they are disliked everywhere.

sheesh!

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Wrong

Pictures are worth a thousand words.

Here's one I took in 2008. My boat's nearest to the beach on left. Probably lots of folks who used Clipper Cove every other week or so who cursed my boat because it was anchored in a prime spot they felt entitled to.... Unless I was in Sausalito of course.

That wasn't the "argument" used by folks trying to deal with the issue at all. And since you keep your boat in pristine condition, I doubt if anyone was pointing at you. In my many years of anchoring at Clipper Cove on a REGULAR basis (like you), since 1987 on our C25 and since 1998 on our C34, weekends, weekdays & holidays, I saw firsthand the growth of the derelicts, some underwater literally.

Most folks coming in to anchor, who saw a well kept boat like yours in a good spot would simply say "Oh, he got there first, we'll pick another spot." The issue became one where the "other spots" started to become very limited because of the derelicts. That's why the TIA acted, like it or not, and I earlier provided a link to the long letter I wrote to them about it.

Those other spots also were off your bow. In most afternoon conditions, it gets a lot windier out off your boat (east/southeast) than further off your starboard side & bow, which are the preferred spots as I mentioned earlier, and which the derelicts "occupied." They WERE in the picture I linked to from Latitude. Your picture was taken from the west, where the afternoon winds come from, so all the boats in your picture would be pointing toward the camera in the afternoon west winds.

The derelicts were actually gathered outside the range of your picture, to the right, in the SW corner. Not saying they WERE there when you took this picture, just trying to provide a balanced view for those unfamiliar with the anchorage.

[sailorchic34]

Originally Posted by weavis

Amazing.

Y'Awl have managed to turn this in to a "mine is bigger than yours" thread.

If all liveaboards are as anal as you lot, no wonder they are disliked everywhere.

sheesh!

Good morning or afternoon to you too weavis.

Besides as Wrong said, we're cruisers not liveaboards.....

Yeppers that would be Anal......

[Wrong]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

That wasn't the "argument" used by folks trying to deal with the issue at all. And since you keep your boat in pristine condition, I doubt if anyone was pointing at you. In my many years of anchoring at Clipper Cove on a REGULAR basis (like you), since 1987 on our C25 and since 1998 on our C34, weekends, weekdays & holidays, I saw firsthand the growth of the derelicts, some underwater literally.

Most folks coming in to anchor, who saw a well kept boat like yours in a good spot would simply say "Oh, he got there first, we'll pick another spot." The issue became one where the "other spots" started to become very limited because of the derelicts. That's why the TIA acted, like it or not, and I earlier provided a link to the long letter I wrote to them about it.

Those other spots also were off your bow. In most afternoon conditions, it gets a lot windier out off your boat (east/southeast) than further off your starboard side & bow, which are the preferred spots as I mentioned earlier, and which the derelicts "occupied." They WERE in the picture I linked to from Latitude. Your picture was taken from the west, where the afternoon winds come from, so all the boats in your picture would be pointing toward the camera in the afternoon west winds.

The derelicts were actually gathered outside the range of your picture, to the right, in the SW corner. Not saying they WERE there when you took this picture, just trying to provide a balanced view for those unfamiliar with the anchorage.

Curious indeed that three of us who moved between Clipper Cove and Sausalito never had trouble anchoring in literally the same spots every time... Never wrote a letter to Lat38 either... I disagree with your assertion those who wrote to Lat38 didn't complain the best spots were always taken by 'liveaboards' and 'derelicts'. I read those letters with special interest because they were the driving force behind changes I feared would, and ultimately did destroy my ability to move between Sausalito and Clipper Cove.

The other destructive force is the congestion in Richardson Bay. Look closely at the photo I provided of Clipper Cove. Many of the same smallish 'dollar boats' are found in Richardson Bay. It may interest you to know one individual was responsible for many of the boats in Clipper Cove which he bought for the purpose of resale...