Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 05-07-2015, 18:37   #601
Moderator
 
sailorchic34's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: SF Bay Area
Boat: Islander 34
Posts: 4,812
Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fstbttms View Post
Jeezus, you just spout this stuff as if it were gospel and you had proof. But it is merely, all of it, your inexpert opinion. Hell, you don't even keep your boat on the Bay. I can tell you that all the numbers you've tossed about in the above post are inaccurate. That's something that, as an engineer, one would think you'd be more careful about. And then there's this "holier than thou because I'm an anchor-out liveaboard" attitude. Unbelievable.
LOL, nice ad hominem. Can you provide specific references to reports that differ from my out of my butt "numbers".
Unlike many folks with boats I actually sail my boat about the bay and beyond a bit. So I get to Clipper cove, Richardson bay, paridice cove, Angel IS and china camp and sail about many many times a year. I also was in Marina bay for three years and have lived in other marinas for months and years.

Never said I was an expert (except in some fields of engineering) but I do sail a lot all over the place. I do anchor all over the bay and delta. Check any marina on a weekend and 90-95% of the boats don't move. At marina's I've stayed at, most boats (60-70% based on what I've seen) never move in a year. Some and by some I mean more then 30 percent have not moved in many years.

Today on the 4th of July weekend, there have been zero boats by where I'm anchored. Last year I was at the same spot and all of three or four boats (fishing and or ski) went by. Mind you I'm not in a busy area, but then it is a holiday weekend.

You say my numbers are not accurate and they are not. But they are approximate, As to "holier than thou", I'm so not holy. But I am out and about a bit, not at home, somewhere watching the telly and dreaming about being on a boat. I've been a liveaboard and a sailor for 10 year or so. I don't just liveaboard, I move about and see whats around the next corner.

From my personal perspective there were more folks anchoring out in 2007-2008 by at least 200 percent (My Opinion and it's a conservative number), then what I see out and about now a days.
__________________

__________________
sailorchic34 is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 05-07-2015, 20:02   #602
Marine Service Provider
 
fstbttms's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Under a boat, in a marina, in the San Francisco Bay
Posts: 3,594
Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorchic34 View Post
Can you provide specific references to reports that differ from my out of my butt "numbers".
I don't have to. It is not incumbent upon me to prove you wrong. You made the claims, therefore it is you who must provide supporting evidence. You don't get to make a statement and say, "This is fact, merely because I said it is."

That said, a simple count of marina slips tells us that there are approximately 20,000 boats berthed in the greater Bay Area. That fact alone means that pretty much every number you stated is inaccurate.
__________________

__________________
fstbttms is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 05-07-2015, 20:03   #603
Marine Service Provider
 
SV THIRD DAY's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: La Paz, Mexico
Boat: 1978 Hudson Force 50 Ketch
Posts: 3,653
Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

ya...what do you think this is a Copper Coat thread?

Ha ha ah
__________________
Rich Boren Goodbye Morro Bay...Hello La Paz, Mexico and the owner of:
Cruise RO Water High Output Water
Technautic CoolBlue Refrigeration
SV THIRD DAY is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 05-07-2015, 20:05   #604
Marine Service Provider
 
fstbttms's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Under a boat, in a marina, in the San Francisco Bay
Posts: 3,594
Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post
ya...what do you think this is a Copper Coat thread?
Good one
__________________
fstbttms is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 05-07-2015, 21:12   #605
Moderator
 
sailorchic34's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: SF Bay Area
Boat: Islander 34
Posts: 4,812
Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

You know I hear that 20,000 slips number batted about. but for the life of me I can't find that many slips, let along that many boats in slips. The number I got by counting marina slips from the various websites was about 13,500. Though I'm sure I missed a few. Of course not all slips are full either.

You know I did not state it was a fact, just my opinion based on what I see around the bay and delta over the last eight years.
__________________
sailorchic34 is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 05-07-2015, 21:47   #606
Marine Service Provider
 
fstbttms's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Under a boat, in a marina, in the San Francisco Bay
Posts: 3,594
Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorchic34 View Post
The number I got by counting marina slips from the various websites was about 13,500.
Even if that number were accurate (which it is not), it still means the numbers you posted were wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorchic34 View Post
You know I did not state it was a fact, just my opinion based on what I see around the bay and delta over the last eight years.
Really?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorchic34 View Post
...the facts are that most boats in every marina rarely move in any year. Of the one's that do move over 1/2 are racing and don't keep a serious anchor on their boat. Take the racers off the bay and well over 1/2 the boats go away. With 10,000 boats, some are going to be used. Generally 5% a weekend.
That reads pretty much like you expected us to take your word as gospel. It wasn't until I called you out on it that you even uttered the word, "opinion".
__________________
fstbttms is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 05-07-2015, 22:35   #607
Moderator
 
sailorchic34's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: SF Bay Area
Boat: Islander 34
Posts: 4,812
Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

Oh that. That IS a fact! .

Most boats really don't get used much. Using using my 10k boats and 5 percent number that would be about 500 boats a weekend. As many race, you see lots of the same boats out week after week., I think 500 boats sounds rather reasonable, which on any weekend would be at least in the ballpark based on what I see anyway. Many times there would be less.

Yes a few busy race weekends might see more boats on the bay, but on average it's about 5% of my 10k number.

Getting back to the thread discussion, there are not a lot of folks anchoring out on the weekend on the bay. By anchoring I mean over night. between aquatic park, Richardson bay, clipper cove, paradise cove and china camp, there is less then 30 total that anchor total overnight on any weekend night. That's the high number BTW.

Again just based on my simple observations over the years. It was more before the great recession, but afterwords, it fell like a rock. I'm not counting angel island as that's paid moorings and they do get 10-20 boats a weekend or so, more at the dock, but that's just daytime.
__________________
sailorchic34 is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 05-07-2015, 23:11   #608
Marine Service Provider
 
fstbttms's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Under a boat, in a marina, in the San Francisco Bay
Posts: 3,594
Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

I give up
__________________
fstbttms is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-07-2015, 07:38   #609
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 4,877
Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

To summarize the 41 pages:
- Liveaboards & Cruisers: Locals generally like them.
- Bums living on derelick boats: Locals generally don't like them.

Apply moral judgements as you see fit.
__________________
valhalla360 is online now   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-07-2015, 08:27   #610
Registered User
 
Stu Jackson's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Cowichan Bay, BC (Maple Bay Marina)
Posts: 6,385
Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fstbttms View Post
I give up
But why? Really.

sc34 is offering her opinion, so stated (if needlessly redundant), and her OBSERVATIONS, so clearly stated, too.

If it's 5% of 10,000 or 2 1/2% of 20,000 does it make any difference?

The reality is that only a handful of the boats that are stored in the water in marinas around the Bay are actively sailed on a regular basis.

I think we can all agree on that one, can't we?
__________________
Stu Jackson
Catalina 34 #224 (1986) C34IA Secretary
Cowichan Bay, BC, (Maple Bay Marina) SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)
Stu Jackson is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-07-2015, 08:32   #611
Registered User
 
Wrong's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,702
Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Jackson
1 Maybe then, but here's a 2009 report from Latitude 38 itself/themselves (?) Latitude 38 - 'Lectronic Latitude Scroll down, the picture doesn't show the entire field, but there are at least five boats in the photo, and two are below the water!

2 I anchored there frequently, like once a month back then, and I did see more, many more, than you noted.
Pictures are worth a thousand words.

Here's one I took in 2008. My boat's nearest to the beach on left. Probably lots of folks who used Clipper Cove every other week or so who cursed my boat because it was anchored in a prime spot they felt entitled to.... Unless I was in Sausalito of course.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	ClipperCove_1.jpg
Views:	79
Size:	167.2 KB
ID:	104777  
__________________
Wrong is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-07-2015, 08:54   #612
Moderator
 
weavis's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: SEVILLE - MALLORCA
Posts: 10,135
Send a message via Skype™ to weavis
Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

Amazing.

Y'Awl have managed to turn this in to a "mine is bigger than yours" thread.

If all liveaboards are as anal as you lot, no wonder they are disliked everywhere.

sheesh!

__________________
- Never test how deep the water is with both feet -
10% of conflicts are due to different opinions. 90% by the tone of voice.
Raise your words, not your voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder.
weavis is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-07-2015, 09:08   #613
Registered User
 
Stu Jackson's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Cowichan Bay, BC (Maple Bay Marina)
Posts: 6,385
Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrong View Post
Pictures are worth a thousand words.

Here's one I took in 2008. My boat's nearest to the beach on left. Probably lots of folks who used Clipper Cove every other week or so who cursed my boat because it was anchored in a prime spot they felt entitled to.... Unless I was in Sausalito of course.
That wasn't the "argument" used by folks trying to deal with the issue at all. And since you keep your boat in pristine condition, I doubt if anyone was pointing at you. In my many years of anchoring at Clipper Cove on a REGULAR basis (like you), since 1987 on our C25 and since 1998 on our C34, weekends, weekdays & holidays, I saw firsthand the growth of the derelicts, some underwater literally.

Most folks coming in to anchor, who saw a well kept boat like yours in a good spot would simply say "Oh, he got there first, we'll pick another spot." The issue became one where the "other spots" started to become very limited because of the derelicts. That's why the TIA acted, like it or not, and I earlier provided a link to the long letter I wrote to them about it.

Those other spots also were off your bow. In most afternoon conditions, it gets a lot windier out off your boat (east/southeast) than further off your starboard side & bow, which are the preferred spots as I mentioned earlier, and which the derelicts "occupied." They WERE in the picture I linked to from Latitude. Your picture was taken from the west, where the afternoon winds come from, so all the boats in your picture would be pointing toward the camera in the afternoon west winds.

The derelicts were actually gathered outside the range of your picture, to the right, in the SW corner. Not saying they WERE there when you took this picture, just trying to provide a balanced view for those unfamiliar with the anchorage.
__________________
Stu Jackson
Catalina 34 #224 (1986) C34IA Secretary
Cowichan Bay, BC, (Maple Bay Marina) SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)
Stu Jackson is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-07-2015, 09:38   #614
Moderator
 
sailorchic34's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: SF Bay Area
Boat: Islander 34
Posts: 4,812
Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

Quote:
Originally Posted by weavis View Post
Amazing.

Y'Awl have managed to turn this in to a "mine is bigger than yours" thread.

If all liveaboards are as anal as you lot, no wonder they are disliked everywhere.

sheesh!

Good morning or afternoon to you too weavis.

Besides as Wrong said, we're cruisers not liveaboards.....

Yeppers that would be Anal......
__________________
sailorchic34 is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-07-2015, 09:41   #615
Registered User
 
Wrong's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,702
Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
That wasn't the "argument" used by folks trying to deal with the issue at all. And since you keep your boat in pristine condition, I doubt if anyone was pointing at you. In my many years of anchoring at Clipper Cove on a REGULAR basis (like you), since 1987 on our C25 and since 1998 on our C34, weekends, weekdays & holidays, I saw firsthand the growth of the derelicts, some underwater literally.

Most folks coming in to anchor, who saw a well kept boat like yours in a good spot would simply say "Oh, he got there first, we'll pick another spot." The issue became one where the "other spots" started to become very limited because of the derelicts. That's why the TIA acted, like it or not, and I earlier provided a link to the long letter I wrote to them about it.

Those other spots also were off your bow. In most afternoon conditions, it gets a lot windier out off your boat (east/southeast) than further off your starboard side & bow, which are the preferred spots as I mentioned earlier, and which the derelicts "occupied." They WERE in the picture I linked to from Latitude. Your picture was taken from the west, where the afternoon winds come from, so all the boats in your picture would be pointing toward the camera in the afternoon west winds.

The derelicts were actually gathered outside the range of your picture, to the right, in the SW corner. Not saying they WERE there when you took this picture, just trying to provide a balanced view for those unfamiliar with the anchorage.
Curious indeed that three of us who moved between Clipper Cove and Sausalito never had trouble anchoring in literally the same spots every time... Never wrote a letter to Lat38 either... I disagree with your assertion those who wrote to Lat38 didn't complain the best spots were always taken by 'liveaboards' and 'derelicts'. I read those letters with special interest because they were the driving force behind changes I feared would, and ultimately did destroy my ability to move between Sausalito and Clipper Cove.

The other destructive force is the congestion in Richardson Bay. Look closely at the photo I provided of Clipper Cove. Many of the same smallish 'dollar boats' are found in Richardson Bay. It may interest you to know one individual was responsible for many of the boats in Clipper Cove which he bought for the purpose of resale...
__________________

__________________
Wrong is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Reply

Tags
liveaboard, wanted

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
G'Day from the Whitsundays..& everywhere else really Bob Norson Meets & Greets 3 01-09-2016 01:02
Security systems to prevent unwanted boarders. pilotdave Off Topic Forum 39 18-04-2013 17:02
Unwanted Visitor gbendaly Off Topic Forum 33 07-09-2009 16:26
Unwanted Pet. Alan Wheeler Families, Kids and Pets Afloat 22 22-04-2007 05:59



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:56.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.