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Old 03-07-2015, 11:03   #571
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

Perhaps we can try a different approach.

One of the things that is truly disturbing to me here in the USA is that we (meaning "the authorities) rarely try to find solutions to issues without reinventing the wheel.

Florida is trying one way, Sausalito another, and the list goes on.

In some cases, however, solutions have been found that have actually worked! Imagine that!

Here's an example, right here in our own backyard, that, on the surface seems to have actually worked. In Clipper Cove, mere five or six nautical miles from Richardson Bay, there were a bunch of derelict boats anchored out in the better area of the cove for many, many years. About five years ago, the Treasure Island Authority worked up some rules limiting anchoring to 72 hours, requiring check-ins (never really enforced), but, more importantly, managed to get rid of the derelicts. I honestly do not know what they did with those boats, but they were gone. Gone, gone, gone. A few that I recognized ended up a few miles away in the Estuary, but after a season, they, too, were gone.

I did write to the head of that authority, disagreeing with the policy. http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5020.0.html

"We endorse your objective to remove the derelicts. There appear to be absolutely no reasons that implementation of ANY permits will achieve that objective. Any permit concept only burdens those of us who in no way created the problem in the first place."

It was established, the derelicts are gone, the anchorage is great, the anchor check-in and limitation policies - other than getting the derelicts removed - are never enforced (as far as I know and can see since I hang out on the hook there a couple of times a month). It seems to have worked.

I have no idea what they did with the derelict boats. It would be helpful to find out, anybody know?

Perhaps we can start discussing Things That Work.

Any ideas?
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Old 03-07-2015, 11:19   #572
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

My only real issue with places like clipper cove is they limit you to 72 hours. It would be nice if that was to 5 or 7 days. But most seem to assume everyone only has a 3 day weekend.

I do agree that derilict vessels need to be delt with. I think Stu is right with the concern that "Free" Anchoring will one day be "Fee" anchoring. I am concerned about that too. Though so far there are tons O places to anchor everywhere for free.
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Old 03-07-2015, 11:39   #573
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
Perhaps we can try a different approach.

One of the things that is truly disturbing to me here in the USA is that we (meaning "the authorities) rarely try to find solutions to issues without reinventing the wheel.

Florida is trying one way, Sausalito another, and the list goes on.

In some cases, however, solutions have been found that have actually worked! Imagine that!

Here's an example, right here in our own backyard, that, on the surface seems to have actually worked. In Clipper Cove, mere five or six nautical miles from Richardson Bay, there were a bunch of derelict boats anchored out in the better area of the cove for many, many years. About five years ago, the Treasure Island Authority worked up some rules limiting anchoring to 72 hours, requiring check-ins (never really enforced), but, more importantly, managed to get rid of the derelicts. I honestly do not know what they did with those boats, but they were gone. Gone, gone, gone. A few that I recognized ended up a few miles away in the Estuary, but after a season, they, too, were gone.

I did write to the head of that authority, disagreeing with the policy. Clipper Cove Anchoring

"We endorse your objective to remove the derelicts. There appear to be absolutely no reasons that implementation of ANY permits will achieve that objective. Any permit concept only burdens those of us who in no way created the problem in the first place."

It was established, the derelicts are gone, the anchorage is great, the anchor check-in and limitation policies - other than getting the derelicts removed - are never enforced (as far as I know and can see since I hang out on the hook there a couple of times a month). It seems to have worked.

I have no idea what they did with the derelict boats. It would be helpful to find out, anybody know?

Perhaps we can start discussing Things That Work.

Any ideas?
First, the T.I.A. is a creature created by San Francisco that has jurisdiction over Treasure Island. So, there's a political heavyweight behind the T.I.A. enabeling it to accomplish many things smaller jurisdictions can only dream of.

Maintenance crew used to frequent the beach gathering up dingies declared to be 'trash'. Without so much as leaving some kind of notice the dingies were impounded in a chain link enclosed area. In my case, they took my road bike after cutting through an expensive bronze lock. Not the chain, the lock. My demand for reimbursement for the cost of the lock fell on deaf ears.

So, my assumption would be that after the anchoring restrictions and permit requirements were official, any boats that remained were simply towed away. Crushed?

In Richardson Bay the same sort of situation will exist once notice boats must be moved to facilitate survey work necessary to construct a mooring field are issued.
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Old 03-07-2015, 11:57   #574
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

Hello!
I'm new to this Cruiser's Forum: I'm both an amateur sailor as well as a non-fiction writer working on a book about the community of offshore sailors and liveaboard boating. My work has been published in The Globe and Mail, National Post, Canadian Geographic and other publications, including this story in the Walrus, Canada's largest general interest magazine, on a LB community living in a shipyard: https://thewalrus.ca/all-ashore/

I'm very interested in the restrictions around living aboard and I'm looking for more interviewees outside of Canada -- in Chesapeake Bay or Hawaii, two places I may be visiting in the near future to check out the LB world there. In particular, I'm looking to interview LBs who have either had a long history of living aboard and cruising around the world, or are entirely new to it. Also, if you've done any environmental work while cruising, such as submitting ocean surveys to on-land researchers, you'd be ideal for my book. I'm very easy to talk to and am interested to hear all sorts of experiences around the lifestyle.

Many thanks!
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Old 03-07-2015, 19:30   #575
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

"prove you can move" regulations are all that are really needed to solve the problem. True liveaboards on seaworthy vessels who are living aboard can move their boats. Sure, it might be a little bit of a hassle to change anchorages once a week back and forth, but it totally eliminates the derelict boats and the freeloaders trying to flip boats without paying for storage.

No permits required, no registration required, and just a single weekly survey by the authorities is enough to know whom to ticket and whom to let off. And the authorities can use the seaworthiness excuse to implement it.
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Old 03-07-2015, 20:10   #576
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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Originally Posted by sailorchic34 View Post
My only real issue with places like clipper cove is they limit you to 72 hours. It would be nice if that was to 5 or 7 days. But most seem to assume everyone only has a 3 day weekend.
...
I can understand the short limit as it's a prime location: well protected and in the middle of "everywhere." There's a small marina offering guest berths. It's best to call ahead and reserve.

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Old 03-07-2015, 20:45   #577
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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I can understand the short limit as it's a prime location: well protected and in the middle of "everywhere." There's a small marina offering guest berths. It's best to call ahead and reserve.
True about the marina. Downside is that there are plans, that have already been published, to expand that marina so much that the anchorage, or most of it, will be lost. Darn.
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Old 03-07-2015, 23:22   #578
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorchic34 View Post
My only real issue with places like clipper cove is they limit you to 72 hours. It would be nice if that was to 5 or 7 days. But most seem to assume everyone only has a 3 day weekend.

I do agree that derilict vessels need to be delt with. I think Stu is right with the concern that "Free" Anchoring will one day be "Fee" anchoring. I am concerned about that too. Though so far there are tons O places to anchor everywhere for free.
Sailorchic34,

Bring your boat and diesel skills over to the Mediterranean where you'll find more than 10,000 free and beautiful anchorages. You won't need to wear a jacket in July.

Live free and prosper.

Ken
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Old 04-07-2015, 08:38   #579
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mstrebe View Post
"prove you can move" regulations are all that are really needed to solve the problem. True liveaboards on seaworthy vessels who are living aboard can move their boats. Sure, it might be a little bit of a hassle to change anchorages once a week back and forth, but it totally eliminates the derelict boats and the freeloaders trying to flip boats without paying for storage.

No permits required, no registration required, and just a single weekly survey by the authorities is enough to know whom to ticket and whom to let off. And the authorities can use the seaworthiness excuse to implement it.
*Anyone using the planned 'managed' anchorage in Richardson Bay will have to obtain a permit if staying more than 72 hours.
*The boat must pass inspection, which will include the engine, ground tackle and safety equipment. Boat must be seaworthy and have MSD/holding tank. More. A decal will be issued and must be placed in a prominent location.
*Boaters will be required to re-anchor every 15 days...
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Old 04-07-2015, 08:45   #580
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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True about the marina. Downside is that there are plans, that have already been published, to expand that marina so much that the anchorage, or most of it, will be lost. Darn.
The way to stop that plan is to object on the grounds Clipper Cove is probably the best of only a few refuges in a southerly storm. I've been anchored there after high tailing it away from Sausalito which is fully exposed in southerlies. The wind was reported as 80 m.p.h outside Clipper Cove. Inside there were 18 - 20 knot gusts and no significant waves...
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Old 04-07-2015, 09:14   #581
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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The way to stop that plan is to object on the grounds Clipper Cove is probably the best of only a few refuges in a southerly storm.
LOL, Let me know how that works for ya. Clipper cove also is a prime location for a marina, if you live in SF.

On the plus side, paridise cove on the back side of tuberron offers protections from the south. Though it's wide open to the north and east. The morning ferry traffic will be your wakeup alarm as they zoom by every 20 minutes or so.
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Old 04-07-2015, 14:00   #582
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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LOL, Let me know how that works for ya. Clipper cove also is a prime location for a marina, if you live in SF.

On the plus side, paridise cove on the back side of tuberron offers protections from the south. Though it's wide open to the north and east. The morning ferry traffic will be your wakeup alarm as they zoom by every 20 minutes or so.
As if there aren't already enough marinas in the Bay area in which to park gin palaces and boats that in general are never used...

Money talks.
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Old 04-07-2015, 15:47   #583
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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As if there aren't already enough marinas in the Bay area in which to park gin palaces and boats that in general are never used...

Money talks.
Hey look, we agree.... Money talks. Myself I'm glad most boats are never used. Imagine how the water ways would be if 90% took their boats out every weekend. As it is I'm sitting in pairadice (As Zee calls it) without another boat around.
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Old 04-07-2015, 17:01   #584
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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Hey look, we agree.... Money talks.
Yeah, but we don't agree exactly on what that means.

Quote:
Myself I'm glad most boats are never used. Imagine how the water ways would be if 90% took their boats out every weekend. As it is I'm sitting in pairadice (As Zee calls it) without another boat around.
Glad you explained "pairadice" 'cause I was just about to jump on your spelling. You know, CF standards and all...

Mebbe if we liveaboards wud spel betr wed be licked & wantd evrywhare...
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Old 04-07-2015, 17:18   #585
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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Hey look, we agree.... Money talks. Myself I'm glad most boats are never used. Imagine how the water ways would be if 90% took their boats out every weekend. As it is I'm sitting in pairadice (As Zee calls it) without another boat around.
Sure enough, SC! Dunno how it is now, but I remember thirty years ago on Opening Day, when the bay was so crowded one feared for one's life, the marinas still seemed full of unused boats. One can imagine gridlock on the bay... so better all those wasteful folks stay in the marinas.

Jim
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