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Old 23-06-2015, 15:17   #391
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Re: Are liveaboards unwanted? disliked? all over everywhere?

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So, the remaining live aboard friendly locations in the U.S. of A either require you to freeze your butt off, and or risk losing everything in a 'cane... And, oh, don't forget the humidity and high temps along the Atlantic and Gulf coasts. Lovely. Just lovely.
Mossies, too. Life is hell for liveaboards.
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Old 23-06-2015, 16:42   #392
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Re: Are liveaboards unwanted? disliked? all over everywhere?

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So, the remaining live aboard friendly locations in the U.S. of A either require you to freeze your butt off, and or risk losing everything in a 'cane... And, oh, don't forget the humidity and high temps along the Atlantic and Gulf coasts. Lovely. Just lovely.
As Brer Rabbit said to Brer Fox, "Oh, please don't throw me into the briar patch!" Why have I been so foolish to live aboard in the miserable conditions of the southeast US for the last 43 years? You would have thought that someone would have told me earlier that I was miserable!
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Old 23-06-2015, 17:03   #393
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Re: Are liveaboards unwanted? disliked? all over everywhere?

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As Brer Rabbit said to Brer Fox, "Oh, please don't throw me into the briar patch!" Why have I been so foolish to live aboard in the miserable conditions of the southeast US for the last 43 years? You would have thought that someone would have told me earlier that I was miserable!
Wifey B: You're miserable Spread the word and we'll have fewer people coming her for more misery. I mean isn't misery what leads to millions of tourists like we have? Lots of masochists I guess.
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Old 23-06-2015, 17:14   #394
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

Misery loves company.
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Old 23-06-2015, 17:45   #395
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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Misery loves company.
Wifey B: Like Marina Del Ray? It must be miserable to attract all those boats there.
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Old 23-06-2015, 18:05   #396
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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Now you can anchor outside the bay at Zuniga point, in the shallows off North Island. Yes, it's directly exposed to the ocean, but it's calm 90% of the time. When the weather comes up, you can move into San Diego Bay and anchor for up to three days. We've never had a storm here last longer than that. Then go back out.
What a difference 500 miles makes. Northern California is to say the least a tad blustery in the ocean and on the bay, most of the time. Parts of September and October are down right balmy, However most of the time it's breezy, just a bit. Plus the summer marine layer (fog) means it does not warm up.

Clipper cove was the only really protected anchorage in the central bay. But your limited to 72 hours a month there now.

Richardson bay is in my mind, just ok except when the winter storms and sometimes spring and summer winds run through it. During summer time, 1 pm to 6 pm there are 20-25 knots of wind, pretty much every day.

That is the only half way protected anchorage in the SF bay area. You have to go 60 miles east to the California Delta to find really protected locations. Which is where I am now. Sunny 88 and 29% humidity in the cabin and cool 15-20 knot ish winds blowing outside.

So conditions in northern California are a bit different from a weather standpoint.
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Old 23-06-2015, 18:30   #397
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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What a difference 500 miles makes. Northern California is to say the least a tad blustery in the ocean and on the bay, most of the time. Parts of September and October are down right balmy, However most of the time it's breezy, just a bit. Plus the summer marine layer (fog) means it does not warm up.
.
Then go another 500 miles north and look what you get.
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Old 23-06-2015, 18:43   #398
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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Ah but the diver provides a useful service, in preventing boats from dragging down on others or even damaging a home or dock on Belvaedere.
Unattended, abandoned, and boats without anyone living aboard represent 75% of the total number of boats in the Bay. Those apparently left unattended are most likely boats bought with an objective to re-sell them at a profit, and in the meanwhile the Bay is used for storage. This is not a one-off occurance, with the same people maintaining illegal moorings or leaving these boats at anchor for the purpose of making a profit. Acquiring one boat after the other to sell. The laws of probability suggest the boats that drag will come from the group representing the largest percentage of the whole. Approving of a diver who will make money installing illegal moorings, is wrong headed in several ways. Approving of people who use the Bay for storage of boats obtained for the sole purpose of selling at a profit is also wrong in several ways. Neither can be justified by your argument that it's good 'ol capitalism at it's finest.

Port installed, maintained and managed moorings will prevent dragging incidents. Proof of ownership and current registration will be required in order to obtain a permit; something the speculators cannot do without transferring ownership on the boats they intend to sell. Gone. Abandoned boats will be gone. And if BCDC can be brought around to see the benefit of having a live aboard requirement, the remainder of boats 'stored' by owners will be gone.

A storm contingency plan enlisting the cooperation of marinas, and educating those at anchor about the benefit of moving to protected anchorages like Clipper Cove in advance of an approaching storm will greatly reduce, if not eliminate dragging incidents involving anchored boats.

Your vision favours an anarchic Richardson Bay which is untenable given the recent arrival of boats displaced from closed anchorages around the Bay. And unfortunately most are unattended with nobody on board.

Time for both a managed Port mooring field and anchorage.

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It's capitalism at it's finest. That the RBRA does not approve it, and lord knows they don't approve of much, bothers me not at all.
No, it's a few people profiting by ignoring the rules and using the Bay, a public waterway for personal gain.

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Then there is folks like the city of berkeley who sell some of those dollar boats. As long as they are removed from Berkeley, it works for them.
Right.

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The BABR kicked Google's barge out of treasure island that was docked at the old navy pier because they somehow missed that they needed a permit from the RBRA to be docked at a pier. From my perspective the RBRA is a perfect example of too much government.
I'll agree to simply disagree. Which is not to say I approve of permit schemes designed to thwart live aboards like you and I from moving around and staying in different anchorages for reasonable periods of time.

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From the position on the land folk, your boat (and mine) are dollar boats and should just go away. That you pay for a mooring, does not really make much of a difference to the folks with multi-million dollar home's and million dollar yachts. From their point of view, your part of the problem.
Says you.

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That dear sir is why I don't have a problem with the anchor outs. Because its just a step further to get rid of the payed moorings and all anchoring anywhere. I for one don't want the bay area turning into another San Diego. That is what the RBRA wants long term.
This discussion, although you may want to believe otherwise is not about the anchor outs...
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Old 23-06-2015, 20:27   #399
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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This discussion, although you may want to believe otherwise is not about the anchor outs...

ROFL. Seems we have been discussing anchor outs for a number of days now. Silly me. It's really an anchor thread.

Have fun! I'm done pushing rope..
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Old 23-06-2015, 20:50   #400
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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ROFL. Seems we have been discussing anchor outs for a number of days now. Silly me. It's really an anchor thread.

Have fun! I'm done pushing rope..
On C.F. sometimes strangely enough, its easier to push rope than pull it.
But then the question is: Why do either?

I like to leave the status quo as is unless the bodies start to pile up.
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Old 23-06-2015, 21:05   #401
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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On C.F. sometimes strangely enough, its easier to push rope than pull it.

But then the question is: Why do either?



I like to leave the status quo as is unless the bodies start to pile up.

Concur. No need to solve things that aren't problems.


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Old 24-06-2015, 00:56   #402
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

While I have found people that frown on the live aboard life style, I have found many more that envy it.

I enjoy the feeling of community that bonds people in our transient world.



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Old 24-06-2015, 07:52   #403
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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ROFL. Seems we have been discussing anchor outs for a number of days now. Silly me. It's really an anchor thread.
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Have fun! I'm done pushing rope..
It's about the boats. It's not people on boats who can't possibly cause damage to other boats and or private property with their bodies. It's about the diver(s) that install illegal moorings in violation of local ordinances. It's about the people who obtain dollar boats for resale and use the Bay as a sales lot. It's about the people who've contributed to the worst aspects of Richardson Bay without a care as to how it affects those whos property is damaged and the reputation of what most refer to as the 'anchor outs'. Nary a concern for the costs that accrue to taxpayers whos money is used to dispose of abandoned, sunk and dragging boats. It's about the high cost borne by others who don't use the Bay but must nonetheless contribute to the cost of addressing these problems.

In another sense it's about the real social and psychological difficulties people who take refuge on boats in Richardson Bay face, isolated even more from the kind of care and assistance they require in order to improve their prospects in life.

It's not about your right to anchor. It is about good citizenship and respect for the local, federal and state laws that govern what can and cannot be done by boaters. Thumbing one's nose at local ordinances that prohibit installing a mooring without a permit may seem like an honerable act by some, but doing so contributes later on to uneccessary conflict and costs. It provides a handy means for storing boats for sale, or leaving boats unattended that clog the Bay. Selfish behaviour that adversely affects other boaters rights to share the Bay.

There's more, but this should be enough for most open minded, reasonable people to get the point.
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Old 24-06-2015, 08:53   #404
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

As in many things our impressions of a group of people are often formed by two things. 1-Our attitudes going in, preconceived ideas. 2-Our encounters with a very limited subgroup of that greater group. I don't have an "opinion of liveaboards" as they're all different and it's a broad group of people, quite different from each other.

As to rules and regulation. I'm not going to address Richardson Bay or any specific area as I'm not a stakeholder there nor do I have more than very limited exposure or knowledge. But I'm going to address a concept. Absence of rules and laws does not grant freedom. We often think of it as such but it just leads to a different way of control or limitation. While some say it leads to chaos and it sometimes does, it can lead to worse, assumption of control by the most aggressive faction. Where rules aren't established by law, they become established within a societal group and often not at all fairly.

Going to an extreme, if there was no such thing as land ownership, you wouldn't then have the land shared equitably, you'd have it claimed and taken by those most inclined to fight for it or use force.

I don't feel my rights are unduly compromised when I get on the highway and there's a rule regarding which lane I must drive in.

So how does that apply to anchoring, mooring, liveaboard and generally in society? Compromise. The rules that create a fair playing field, that control or limit those who would abuse absence of rules without unduly penalizing those who are no problem. That's why it's complicated. How do we limit those who left unchecked would take over anchorages or mooring fields through force or aggression without penalizing excessively those who would use those areas fairly and appropriately.

While there are some who are anti-liveaboard and even anti-boater in every respect, most are just against particular segments or representatives of that population. While the abusers may harm the view of those on land, the ones they truly hurt are those who just want to anchor or moor and live peacefully on their boat, harming no one.

The complication is figuring out how to make those rules. It's a general complication a society faces. We live on the water and we love to look out on the boats, especially some of the beautiful sailboats, anchored not far from our home. We would not be happy if derelict boats or really any boats were just parked there, not being used or maintained. But with us it would just be an annoyance. The ones truly hurt would be those cruisers or liveaboards who just needed a decent place to anchor and cause no harm to anyone..in fact, add to the community.

I don't care how much income the owners of a boat have or how much their boat is worth, nor do I care where their income comes from. I do care that they are using the area fairly and not taking advantage of it for a use contrary to that for which it was established, contrary to the general good.

There is one more factor. That is the tendency of people to overreact. Ultimately those who abuse privileges put others at risk of losing privileges. Eventually, instead of moderate regulation and minimal rules you end up with the loss of all privileges. For those who cruise, those who live aboard, those who anchor, and those of us who just generally use the waterways, the ones who put us at greatest risk of finding our rights more restricted are not those who remain on land. They are our fellow boaters, the ones who give our entire group a bad name.

A simple example from elsewhere in society. There are convenience stores that have put in rules restricting school age kids from entering after school or limiting the number at any time. All this was because of the actions of a few. Who really loses in this? The good kid. The kid who would cause no harm. The kid who simply wants to get a snack and a drink and go their way.

It's all a constant search and battle to find a reasonable balance. If those of us in the middle aren't able to help toward doing so then ultimately the extremists at either end are the ones who take control.

To those against rules of any sort, I remind that no one can have unlimited freedom without risking it being usurped by others granted the same. To those wanting a plethora of rules, I remind that good rules are the minimum required to protect the rights of others.
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Old 24-06-2015, 09:18   #405
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

To those wanting a plethora of rules...up yours!
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