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Old 10-06-2015, 17:59   #316
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

I am in Bofort, NC, where it's somehow still ok to dump crap overboard in salt water. We have all the same issues with derelicts as everywhere else, but I was referring to SoFl where this all started when the swells decided we liveaboards were eyesores back in the 80s. Rather than deal with the bums one on one, it always seems easier to pass blanket laws affecting everyone else. Now we have mooring fields at huge expense to keep the riff raff out when it would have been quicker and easier to just kick the bums out.

I don't want to argue the points. These are my observations over 30 plus years.
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Old 10-06-2015, 18:02   #317
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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I am in Bofort, NC, where it's somehow still ok to dump crap overboard in salt water. We have all the same issues with derelicts as everywhere else, but I was referring to SoFl where this all started when the swells decided we liveaboards were eyesores back in the 80s. Rather than deal with the bums one on one, it always seems easier to pass blanket laws affecting everyone else. Now we have mooring fields at huge expense to keep the riff raff out when it would have been quicker and easier to just kick the bums out.

I don't want to argue the points. These are my observations over 30 plus years.
Alas to the land folk, we are part of the bum's....
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Old 10-06-2015, 18:04   #318
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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O

You may not agree, but there is an ongoing process to implement changes around which the centerpiece is a port constructed and maintained mooring field. There will also be a managed anchorage, with controls necessary to prevent the proliferation of illegally installed moorings. Lots more.
Oddly I'm ok with a mooring field as long as they allow free anchoring outside the field for 30 days or so. Current rules is a max of 90 days, but we know how that works. Myself, I tend to anchor, when I pop over that way, closer to the wealthy belvadere folks as it's quieter over on that side.



Still too much traffic on the water for my taste. I've never spent more then a few days there at one time. Mainly when the herring run as its amazing to see the flocks of pelicans diving.
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Old 10-06-2015, 18:46   #319
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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I don't believe the RBRA really cares if anyone is on a boat or not. So, there's been no attempt to determine if they're lived upon. There are boats - as you say - that have been in the same location for eight years. How many of those are obviously not being cared for, are most likely abandoned or of questionable origin and ownership?
.
Aye. The fundamental problem is that so many of the boats in Richardson Bay are not seaworthy. Some of those boats are inhabited, some are abandoned, and far too many are derelict. I've seen winter storms sink or swamp a half dozen boats while an equal number are driven aground over in Tiburon. More and more boats arrive each season, many of which are towed to anchorage.

I suspect that a high percentage of the anchor-outs, as they are known hereabouts, have never learned to navigate and have minimal knowledge regarding boat maintenance. They have turned to boats as a solution to the shortage of affordable housing. Many do not seem to have the funds or motivation to paint or varnish, to repair rigging, or to maintain canvass. They have an unfair reputation for having mental health issues due to a few individuals whose angst is proclaimed loudly. Their reputation is further tarnished by a group of unkempt individuals who gather on Sausalito's only beach and imbibe wines of questionable vintage.

There are some worthy cruisers among them, as our own Sailorchick34 exemplifies.

It's too easy for those of us who can afford $1,000-per-month slips to criticize the anchor-outs for not living up to standards of the proper liveaboard/cruiser/boater. Why should someone spend a boat buck hauling and maintaining his/her derelict boat when he/she can purchase a replacement for half as much? Part of me, the yachtie part, wants to ask, "Why don't you people at least take care of your boats?" But the sad fact is that cast-off boats are a dime a dozen these days. And you can live aboard them.
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Old 10-06-2015, 19:41   #320
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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It's too easy for those of us who can afford $1,000-per-month slips to criticize the anchor-outs for not living up to standards of the proper liveaboard/cruiser/boater. Why should someone spend a boat buck hauling and maintaining his/her derelict boat when he/she can purchase a replacement for half as much? Part of me, the yachtie part, wants to ask, "Why don't you people at least take care of your boats?" But the sad fact is that cast-off boats are a dime a dozen these days. And you can live aboard them.
Existing aboard some of the disgusting floating wrecks I have seen would not qualify as living for me.
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Old 10-06-2015, 20:09   #321
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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There are some worthy cruisers among them, as our own Sailorchick34 exemplifies.

It's too easy for those of us who can afford $1,000-per-month slips to criticize the anchor-outs for not living up to standards of the proper liveaboard/cruiser/boater. Why should someone spend a boat buck hauling and maintaining his/her derelict boat when he/she can purchase a replacement for half as much? Part of me, the yachtie part, wants to ask, "Why don't you people at least take care of your boats?" But the sad fact is that cast-off boats are a dime a dozen these days. And you can live aboard them.
One of my friends there sold her boat (an old woody) to another anchor out. Now she has a really lovely1935 ish 38 foot motoryacht purchased for $2500,anchored off mid way down the channel. Shes slowly getting it right, it has electrical gremlins. Luckily she know this engineering chic.

My other friend purchased a lovely 35' trawler for $18k, but it had really nice electronics and a shiny ford Lehman. Ok neather are the typical soasalito anchor out with stuff all over the deck. Seen those too.

My boat alas, is how to say this, salty. Oh it's clean enough, just a very old design. She's not much, but She's mine. Plus I travel around the bay and delta tons. I am saving up my pennys for a haulout. It's looking like next year I might have enough saved to haul the Rose and slop some paint on the ol' girl.

Why I even paid a diver to clean my hull just a month ago. It needed it, specially the prop which was protected from corrosion via calcium buildup, or so said the diver.

Agree that some are just living aboard with no hope or will to move. No one plans on being an anchorout in Sausalito. It just happens.
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Old 11-06-2015, 06:10   #322
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

An acquaintance of mine has a decent Cape Dory on a private mooring in the main anchorage in Beaufort, along Taylor's Creek. He lives in Raleigh, 150 miles away. I've been in and out around here for 10 years, and AFAIK, the boat has never moved. The owner shows up now and then. As I see it, he's just taking up valuable space while enjoying free storage as a non-resident. This bothers the heck out of me.

And he is not alone. I'm going to make this number up but let's say there are 50 or 60 boats here on permanent private moorings. Less than a dozen are occupied, give or take. This isn't Richardson Bay but the creek is relatively narrow, forcing legitimate cruisers to anchor much further from the downtown area ... not ideal for a touristy town. Moreover, each year when the Big Wind comes, several break loose damaging others before they hit the beach.

And that's the nice anchorage. The Town Creek anchorage, a "port of refuge," has been clogged for years with floating debris, to the point there is zero room to pull in and anchor for a bit. At this moment there are three hulls on the beach. The floaters are rented, sold, and resold for pennies as discussed above. Simple safety and registration checks would allow these derelicts to be ticketed, and removed.

We're building a billion dollar bridge that's not needed or wanted but I guess there is nothing in the budget for this legitimate concern.
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Old 11-06-2015, 06:36   #323
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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... We're building a billion dollar bridge that's not needed or wanted but I guess there is nothing in the budget for this legitimate concern.
Not nearly a billion $.
“NCDOT has awarded a contract to replace the bridge on U.S. 70 over Gallant’s Channel for $66.4 million to Conti Enterprises, Inc. of Edison, N.J. “
NCDOT: Proposed Improvements to US 70 & Gallants Channel Bridge
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Old 11-06-2015, 06:57   #324
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pirate Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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Not nearly a billion $.
“NCDOT has awarded a contract to replace the bridge on U.S. 70 over Gallant’s Channel for $66.4 million to Conti Enterprises, Inc. of Edison, N.J. “
NCDOT: Proposed Improvements to US 70 & Gallants Channel Bridge

Heh ... knew that was coming. 66.4 million here, 66.4 million there, pretty soon yer talkin big money. And it's still a bridge to nowhere, as they say.
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Old 11-06-2015, 09:38   #325
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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<snip>

Agree that some are just living aboard with no hope or will to move. No one plans on being an anchorout in Sausalito. It just happens.
Not so. Word is out "on the street", in homeless encampments and everywhere people talk that:

"Pretty much doesn't matter what your size, IQ, ink, wardrobe, language, or financing is, you can rock on the Bay.
If you show up in Sausalito, with or without a boat, you won't be in need for long. You'll get a bunk or a whole boat! A foothold."

This from Kevin Kiffer, a Sausalito anchor out. Posted here: The Anchor-Outs | Features | North Bay Bohemian

About 6 months ago I encountered a lady exhibiting signs of a simple mind pulling a suitcase on wheels who told me she'd come to Sausalito to "...find myself a boat".

Recent arrivals in Sausalito who've taken refuge on a boat have come here with the purpose in mind. No accident. And more the merrier for those selling dollar boats for $1,000 or more a pop. More the merrier for those renting boats to these vulnerable people. More the merrier for the diver who installs illegal moorings for rent or sale.
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Old 11-06-2015, 10:11   #326
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pirate Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

From the above: "Some 50 people live year-round aboard a motley collection of vessels in varying states of disrepair within view of the affluent hillside homes and mansions of Sausalito and Tiburon, but police say up to 130 call the bay home in warmer months."

We all know the real issue is bolded above. But again, I think the derelict situation would go away with equipment/sanitary/registration checks ... all regs already on the books in most states.
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Old 11-06-2015, 10:26   #327
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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Oddly I'm ok with a mooring field as long as they allow free anchoring outside the field for 30 days or so. Current rules is a max of 90 days, but we know how that works. Myself, I tend to anchor, when I pop over that way, closer to the wealthy belvadere folks as it's quieter over on that side.
For all intensive purposes due to NO ENFORCEMENT the Sausalito ordinances are defunct. You can anchor as long as you wish provided:

1.) You can find a worthy spot with adequate swinging room, and you're level of confidence that surrounding boats are suitably anchored and not on a mooring arrangement hidden from view is high.

2.) You are not in a channel...

The time to get involved for influencing the details that will eventually give character to the mooring field and 'free anchorage' is fast approaching.

While not being actively solicited, write to the RBRA, BCDC and Sausalito City Council with your ideas and recommendations. There will be lots of public meetings throughout the remainder of 2015. RBRA hopes to begin surveying the Bay in preparation for building the mooring field in 2015-2016, with construction possible in '16.

A couple of my own recommendations.

OWNER OCCUPIED BOATS ONLY!

1.) Reserve a reasonable number of subsidized moorings for low income individuals and families engaged with a plan or program to help them move into housing if that's their goal. Use agencies, public and or private in the business of helping these folks attain their goals.

2.) A small number of moorings for TEMPORARY storage of boats.

3.) Install moorings in proportion to demand. The entire field need not be filled at once.

4.) No private moorings of any type.

5.) Boats cannot anchor anywhere outside the designated, managed free anchorage.

6.) In order to ensure everyone has an opportunity to use the free anchorage and eliminate any chance a boater will 'assume ownership' and possibly build an illegal mooring in one spot; boaters will be required to re-anchor every 15 days. Any offender's boat will be subject to impoundment and fines...

7.) Every boat anchored in the free anchorage must have sufficient, properly sized chain to attain a minimum five to one scope excluding rope. Prudent sailors will carry more than this minimum... A properly sized primary and secondary anchor must be present, taking into account the boat displacement.

8.) The first 72 hours on a mooring is free. Beyond 72 hours boat owners must apply for a permit, show proof of ownership and current registration, submit their boat for inspection and if approved apply a decal to a pre-determined location on the boat. Fees will be on a day to day or monthly basis.

Except for the fees, the same requirements above will apply to the free anchorage.

I've forgotten something....

Oh yeah. A storm contingency plan should be developed incorporating participation from marinas allowing anchored boats to occupy empty slips at no charge for the duration of the storm. Alternate safe anchorages such as Clipper cove should be open without any constraint for the duration of the storm. Enforcement officers will advise and assist boaters in need of guidance when a storm is forecast to arrive. There's typically a three to four day window...

Your thoughts & ideas?





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Still too much traffic on the water for my taste. I've never spent more then a few days there at one time. Mainly when the herring run as its amazing to see the flocks of pelicans diving.
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Old 11-06-2015, 10:29   #328
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

The thing is if they remove the boats in Richardson bay, the folks will then be homeless in Sausalito. That actually costs more in police and jail time then cities and towns can afford. So we have the down and out folks living as best they can on the bays and rivers and under bridges on the USA.

My thought from above is that no one plans on being homeless or living in a junky boat in richardson bay. Yes if I was homeless I would be looking for a cheap boat to live on too. Beats living in a cardboard box.

The sad truth, is it's cheaper to leave the folks on da boats, then to remove the boats and have the folks that were on the boat sleeping on the streets or in jails. That costs far more money that most cities just don't have.


Myself I'm doing good. I have a seaworthy boat, a bit o money coming in from freelance engineering and $500 in the bank. So I've no problems at all. If I had too, I could fish in the delta and serve fish and bullrush root for dinner, and do just fine.

But there are tons of folks paying $1000 a month for a apartment, just a paycheck away from being homeless. It happens. I for one will never complain about the people living on the junk boats, because many are just an unfortunate event, away from being homeless.
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Old 11-06-2015, 11:22   #329
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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The thing is if they remove the boats in Richardson bay, the folks will then be homeless in Sausalito. That actually costs more in police and jail time then cities and towns can afford. So we have the down and out folks living as best they can on the bays and rivers and under bridges on the USA.

My thought from above is that no one plans on being homeless or living in a junky boat in richardson bay. Yes if I was homeless I would be looking for a cheap boat to live on too. Beats living in a cardboard box.

The sad truth, is it's cheaper to leave the folks on da boats, then to remove the boats and have the folks that were on the boat sleeping on the streets or in jails. That costs far more money that most cities just don't have.


Myself I'm doing good. I have a seaworthy boat, a bit o money coming in from freelance engineering and $500 in the bank. So I've no problems at all. If I had too, I could fish in the delta and serve fish and bullrush root for dinner, and do just fine.

But there are tons of folks paying $1000 a month for a apartment, just a paycheck away from being homeless. It happens. I for one will never complain about the people living on the junk boats, because many are just an unfortunate event, away from being homeless.
Your argument begs for objective data revealing how many people on the Bay actually fit your description. I see people at the dingy dock early in the morning, presumably on their way to a job. I'm also aware of people who have no job and can't afford to even support themselves on a boat. There's something missing here, and I think it's called self motivation - taking the initiative. But, sidestepping this for the moment we need to know who's in the Bay and their needs.

I think pointing to people one paycheck away from homelessness is an irrevelent argument. Is Richardson Bay a destination to be held in reserve for these people. Forever filled with junk boats just because these people may need somewhere to go when the SHTF? They may want to do something more practical, like scramble to find a new job even if it entails moving to Minnesota.

Did you see my recommendation for subsidized moorings?

I disagree taking refuge on a boat in Richardson Bay is the best option available for people who have psychological problems and or no marketable skills necessary to find a job. There are programs and temporary housing available to give them a leg up. Helping them to access these programs and services can be part of the process. Recommend it. Take the lead.

Maybe I grew up in a different environment, coming away with a realization that I had to take the initiative to improve my chances for getting a job by augmenting the education I already had and yes, if necessary move to where I could find work.

Designating Richardson Bay as just another homeless encampment is wrong.
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Old 11-06-2015, 11:30   #330
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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even if it entails moving to Minnesota.
Hey, let's leave the good folks of MN out of this, eh?

No better place to be in all the world for about 2 weeks in the early fall
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