Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

[Terra Nova]

In Marina del Rey live-aboards are now strictly controlled. Live-aboards are unwanted because they take up valuable waterfront land with their constantly used vehicle parking--land that developers and .gov want for more lucrative ventures.

First you must obtain conditional permission from your dockmaster.

If you can get this permission, then you will be required to undergo an onboard boat inspection with the county sherrifs, who will be back every 12 months for another onboard inspection. If you and your boat pass this inspection, you will be issued a sticker which must be displayed.

Once you have the sticker, your slip rent is then increased by usually the maximum .gov allows, 55% surcharge over your normal slip rent. Additionally some marinas charge boaters for their utilities, which are metered, and for which another management fee surcharge is added.

[oldragbaggers]

It's a conundrum. The very benefits of cruising that draw so many to the lifestyle are the same things that make the landlubbers want to extinguish it.

I live on the Chesapeake Bay. The Bay is plagued with problems from pollution to over fishing/harvesting to foreign species that have come in and are endangering the domestic species of sea life. I'm no marine or environmental expert and can't detail all the problems but I know here in Maryland we pay dearly through our (many) taxes to clean and protect the Bay. There are regulations galore imposed on businesses, the Maryland Clean Marina Act severely restricts activities in marinas and makes it difficult for DIYers to do work and still conform to the environmental regulations. And it's a complex waterway that requires ongoing dredging, shoreline management, and many navigational aids. We pay, pay, pay in one way or the other and boating is very regulated in many ways.

So along comes Joe Liveaboard Free Cruiser. He drops his hook somewhere in the Bay for free, manages to get his needs met from the facilities that exist, enjoys the beauty but escapes the burden of expense.

This naturally creates a situation of antagonism with those who spot him floating peacefully in the anchorage from their car window as they drive off to work in the morning. Maybe they are ticked off because they just got their property tax bill in the mail, or they just heard that story on the news last night about the "rain tax" or they're thinking they have to get their vehicle emissions tested on the way home from work.

Although you couldn't anchor anyplace for free in southern California, we encountered the same kind of resentment in San Diego and by the time we left there in 2003 it had become all but impossible to find a place to liveaboard legally. Some marinas are more inclined to turn a blind eye than others, and most who allow it will charge you fees that equal what you would pay to rent a place shoreside.

People don't like that feeling that someone else is "getting away with something." Some people envy/resent someone living for free/cheap a lifestyle that they can't/don't have. Especially if they feel that they are the ones that are somehow paying for it.

And then on the pragmatic side, there are costs involved in keeping waterways clean, properly marked with navigation aids, facilities available (dingy docks, pump out stations, waste collection, sidewalks, street lights, parking lots, harbor dredging, mooring fields, and on and on and on.) So if you are managing to live where you can avoid contributing to the cost of all this, who is doing the paying? People who don't have the time or wherewithal to enjoy it??

How many threads on this forum deal with specifically how to live on the cheap? Real cheap? Cheaper than the land based counterparts could ever manage to live unless they are living in a refrigerator box under a bridge somewhere.

Are they jealous?? Ya think....???? And should cruisers share the burden of the costs of managing the waterways that they are privileged to enjoy? I think they should. And most of them do. But the ones who blatantly and visibly don't are drawing negative attention to the cruising lifestyle, driving up costs for people who don't get to enjoy the water in the same way cruisers can and ultimately are endangering the availability of the lifestyle for everyone.

[ElGatoGordo]

As a liveaboard I'll say this:

First, the listed stuff for FL, GA, and TX are all wrong. So OP...get facts straight. There are SOME places in FL limiting you. As others said above, GA has ways to live aboard. And I live on Galveston Bay (never heard of Houston Bay) and there is certainly no law against anchoring as you state. There aren't many GOOD places to anchor but that's different. If you want to go anchor in the middle of Galveston Bay from now until Jesus comes you won't be bothered. It won't be very pleasant as it gets NASTY choppy. But no law. And we have maybe 4 or 5 boats anchored in Clearlake with people living aboard. I do hope SOMEONE is asking them for pumpout receipts, but I doubt it

Now, the fact is live aboards DO have a bad reputation. Most of it brought on by live aboards. Given the small size of our little fraternity, how many bad apples do you think it takes to screw it up for everyone?

I stay in a marina, at $200/month that's dirt cheap living (yeah, I know, we have it good). But I still have to work for a living.

My question to the OP is: What makes you think the Landites owe you free water, a place to land your dink, someone to clean the poop out of the water and remove derelicts? We live in a society, this means mutual responsibility. I can easily see where there can be a problem with someone who wants all those things, but no responsibility. That IS the perception, right or wrong.

So man up, keep your boat neat, be a good citizen. And support those who would require that of ALL liveaboards.

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by liveaboardL

SNIP

Obviously liveaboards are not the type but where are they welcomed, wanted, and given enough incentives to anchor around for a while?

SNIP

Not sure if you cut class the day they taught economics but what makes you think anyone has an obligation to provide you with 'incentives to anchor'. Traditional economic analysis would be that you provide incentives to those who allow you to anchor and use a dock, showers, water supply, and the like.

The real problem in many places is the demand for locations to anchor, docks to tie up at, and showers to use far exceeds the supply. Of course the demand for lots of goods and services is greater than the supply and increasing the supply of goods and services cruisers demand is a lower priority in society's eyes than increasing the supply of other goods and services.

[sailorchic34]

In california many pump out stations are financed by fees that are a part of boat registrations, taxes, etc. This is why many pump outs in northern california anyway are free to use.

Even if your at anchor, the tax man commith. Property taxes are due even for the anchorouts. Mind you the poorer ones don't pay. But I try keeping the tax guys happy. Though I do take a homestead exemption on my boat taxes too. So I'm paying for schools, roads and a whole lotta things I'm not using too.

Yes sometimes I use water I do not pay for. Generally it's about 15-20 gallons of water a week, or maybe 20 cents worth. Mind you I do actually pay for dockage every week or two too, so then the tank gets filled. Trash on the other hand, I pay to dispose off.

As far as poop in the water, it seems nature provides the means to recycle waste in the food chain. One of the reasons the oceans are not filled with fish poop after millions of years.

There are free dinghy docks in richardson bay. There are even free city docks in some towns, (for a few hours anyway). Even SF has a free dock for 4 hours. The best things in life are free. Mind you I'm quite happy that most folks are happier living on land. If everyone wanted to live on the water, I would have to move ashore.

[liveaboardL]

Some of these replys are just unreal. Like Alice in Wonderland. Strangerer and strangerer.
What makes me think what?
God help us.
Whatever the bay is called, the government chart that I downloaded said on the chart that anchoring in the bay is illegal due to underground cables. Perhaps I misunderstood.
I don't expect anyone to clean my poop out of the water. I'm sure the fishes would love to do that. I'll bet dolphins do it.
I don't expect free water from any man. I collect free water from God. Thank you. As for free dinghi docks, they are a nice gesture, but I don't expect that either. I pay my property tax for the boat and it goes towards maintaining the boat ramps...
As for people being jelous of not having to pay rent... LOL, they need to grow up & start thinking more. There are all sorts of immature little thoughts out there, but it's creepy when they start dictating which rules nonslave, free Americans have to live under. Right?
I'd love to live free out here, but I just cannot figure out how to catch food! I just keep trying & trying & nothing ever bites.
As for derelect boats, from what I've seen, they get sunk, & I won't say by who, but it's at midnight. No one's paying to haul those things out. Live & let live. I don't need to enslave you & you can let me be. Lets all respect our God given rights.
This message is brought to you by, me, a free human. I wasn't paid to say it either, and best of all, it makes SENSE to a free-thinking, unfettered mind. Cheers.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by liveaboardL

poop in the water
theft of outboard motors
mental illness
derelect boats (citing boats w/ a tarp rain-catchment system as an example, pretending it has a 'roof leak')
anchors that plow ALL the sea grass up, ruining the environment
and don't forget those runaway uninsured boats that are so hazardous, like ticking time-bombs just waiting to explode!
what about terrorist hideouts?
& drug smuggling
they don't pay taxes, unless they're in a marina of course
oh... the list goes on

Don't forget those $10/day dinghi ramp fees.

It just seems like we're being given a bad rep.
So, where are liveaboards actually welcome? Where people admire the beauty of their ships, offer a free dinghi dock, protected anchorages w/out time limits, mandatory paid mooring fields, maybe even where fresh water

A lot what you sarcastically say is true about liveaboards. I have seen plenty of brown debris in the water. Once in a La Paz marina, the people were openly flushing the head in the enclosed marina. In Richardson bay in S.F. it goes on all the time. Anchor outs that never-ever come into a side tie and you never see them with porta-potties to be emptied.
Kehi Lagoon on Oahu has it's regular drug dealers living on derelict boats. And let us not forget the legal drug...alcohol that so many seem to think is ok until the bottle is empty, then out for a dinghy ride. Oh ya...rain water catchments with blue tarps?...please! a lot of anchor outs are almost permanently attached to the sea floor with marine growth. That kind of lack of maintenance encourages leaky ports.
Actually, I feel for the mental illness that does exist in many anchorages as the federal gubbament refuses to take care of this segment of it's citizenship. Lastly...outboard thefts. A slue of thefts happened in Alameda, Ca. while I was there. It was supposed the perpetrators came in from the street. I was a liveaboard at the time and new it had to be from the water...sure enough it was.
So to just conclude...we did it to ourselves. Back in the 70's, liveaboards (not anchored outs) were encouraged as it tended to be a neighborhood watch situation. But with a coastal commission and greedy Insurance companies screaming liability, all has changed. You want to believe that when I go into an unknown anchorage, my ears and eyes are open and my mouth shut as well as my boat locked when I leave it.
While out cruising in Mexico, things are a little different. Mostly due to boats actually being used for a greater purpose.

[Don1500]

The very definition of "liveaboard" in FLorida is different from what you are talking about. In Florida a "liveaboard", by the state definition, is a vessel used solely as a residence and not for navigation, i.e. a barge. Boaters like the majority of the members here are considered extended cruisers. This is for the boats that are at anchor in free water. This is not the marinas definition, which is any slip or mooring used by a vessel that people live on full time.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...9-a-29054.html

[BandB]

Unfortunately, the good live aboards have suffered from the bad just as the landowner who doesn't mind the good live aboard anchored out has suffered from the landowner who hates them all.

The solution is hard to come by but ultimately it's both sides giving just a bit. As a live aboard who is decent you need to help with means to limit those who aren't. Those who do trash the waters you respect, who do steal from other live aboards the moment they turn their backs, who do get drunk or high on a daily basis and disturb others. As a landowner you need to help with means to limit the unreasonable level of restrictions some landowners want.

Both sides need to recognize that it's not going to be "anything goes" nor is it going to be "nothing goes." As one who uses marinas more than I anchor, I love and hate live aboards at marinas. Those who are abusing the facilities, who have their trash and beer cans everywhere, you disturb others, who have boats in total disrepair and who I wouldn't trust them or their friends an inch bother me and I prefer not being docked adjacent to them. But then those who are honest, clean, decent, trustworthy persons I like having there, especially if I'm keeping a boat there for a while. They are like a good neighborhood watch. They are the ones who catch and stop people who don't belong on the docks, who see boats that appear to be taking on water before it's too late, who notice other problems and just keep the "neighborhood" nicer.

So it's not unlike a land neighborhood. Good neighbors and bad. Now if we all had a hundred acres or more we wouldn't care about neighbors, just as if we had the anchorages to ourselves we wouldn't have that concern. But most of us live in crowded neighborhoods so we have zoning laws. Most who choose to live in marinas or in anchorages are also close to neighbors so, in effect, benefit from some form of restrictions. If all neighbors were good, we'd need no rules, but that's unfortunately not the way life is.

As to saying everyone hates live aboards, it's just not true anymore than saying all live aboards hate weekend boaters. Are they limited and restricted in many areas? Yes. But I'm in one of the most crowded boating states and there are plenty of marinas here who allow live aboards. Do they pay more? Yes, because they use more.

I hope both sides can continue working to find solutions that make it better for all. To those of you who cause no problems, who are good neighbors, I'm sorry when you're lumped with others who are opposite to you. Unfortunately, it pushes even the most kind hearted. Oriental was as prime an example as ever. As tolerant and friendly a community as possible. Yes, look at the anger and problems one abuser of the privileges stirred up. And who was hurt most? Not those living on land. No, Cruisers. Those who typically would have anchored in the area but found it uncomfortable to do so. That and those who otherwise tried helping them.

So to the question. Are liveaboards unwanted? Some are by some people. Are they disliked? Some are by some people. Is this true everywhere? Some is in some places. Blanket statements, grouping of people and attitudes seldom leads to accurate portrayals.

[soverel]

Know the law where you are and never let anyone intimidate you. They will try. Know the law. A happy fla liveavoard.

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[soverel]

This reminds me of the fight the homeschoolers have put up in the past. There are homeschool legal support groups out there but does anyone know of one for liveaboards?

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[forsailbyowner]

I find it ludicrous that someone with waterfront property would mention poop in the water. That crap insecticide and fertilizer that is sprayed on the lawns, not to mention damage to the natural shoreline do much more harm to the environment than a persons poop. Maybe we should make manatees, sea turtles, and porpoises use toilet facilities. The water degradation of the coastal estuaries is done by farming, runoff from roads and houses where there should be none, not a few peoples poop. Ive stayed in some beautiful estuary locations that would become absolutely foul when it rained with an oil coating over the water from the runoff from roadways and buildup along the coast. Remember everything that leaks out of a car or is dumped into ditches and lawns ends up in the water. Maybe it should be illegal for someone to let his pet poop within miles from shore.

I use pumpouts regularly. Usually theres a fee involved but its easier to just fill up there than hauling your water around in jugs.

There are plenty of places that welcome liveaboards as long as they dont take up residency in one spot with anchor chains 6" thick with growth. I simply dont go places with restrictive and unwelcome attitudes. Usually even then all it takes is when the local law comes up to check you out is to say "Dont worry I have plans to move on and dont plan on staying here forever." and they leave you alone for the duration of the stay. Beaufort SC is one of my favorite stops. Free dinghy dock, free day dock, cheap showers, laundry available, anchorage.

Jacksonville has been friendly. I have one canvas client there who told me he likes looking out his back and seeing me anchored there. Said it gives him a nautical ocean feel. They welcome me with homemade beer and wonderful meals when i stop by. I bring fresh fish as theyre on a stretch where im usually loaded with fish when arriving. Jax itself has free docks, free pumpout on the river and Ive never been hassled.

So in summation I would rather see waterfront and coastal buildup banned. These houses are damaging the environment and are the real eyesore.

[oldragbaggers]

Having been a liveaboard in the past (and hoping to be one again in the future) I hope there are always going to be places to liveaboard, but I see the threat to that right here in this thread. The old "dolphins poop in the water so my effluent shouldn't be a problem argument." is just disgusting. There's nothing like being in an anchorage, and some can be very crowded, and you see the bubbles (and accompanying crap) coming up from someone's boat, and then not too far away a few minutes later you see someone's kid jump into the water to play. Come on people....offshore okay, but not in a crowded anchorage. And the fact that you're making arguments to try and justify doing so just tells me you're part of the problem.

And then those that rant on about how the best things should be free. Yes, the best things are free, if you're talking about the sky, the sun, the wind, the clouds, the nature. But if you're talking about bathrooms, water spigots, dumpsters, docks, parking lots...nothing is free. Just because you find a way to make it free TO YOU doesn't mean it is free.

My husband and I have a small camper and we also land cruise. Lots of road driving means potty breaks. You go into the bathroom, you appreciate if it's clean to start with (wonder who did that for you?), you rip off a little toilet paper, squirt some soap into your hand to wash, tear off a couple of paper towels or run the electric dryer to dry your hands. Maybe you also dump the trash you've accumulated in your car while you're at it. All those services and facilities cost someone something to build and maintain. If we're stopping at a rest stop we figure that's taken care of with our taxes. But if we stop at a private business we try and buy something. If we don't need gas maybe we get a cup of coffee or a couple of bottles of water. To not do so is akin to someone telling me I need to keep my door unlocked so people can camp down at the park at the end of my road and use my bathroom.

I think we should all be able to enjoy the natural wonders that are available to us and I hate to see all the restrictions that are imposed to prevent it. But I also have no love or appreciation for people who use/abuse and take for granted facilities and services that are provided by the hard work and investment of others while making no attempt to contribute anything to the cost and maintenance of those facilities or services. I know that most cruisers and liveaboards do their share, pay taxes like everyone else, contribute to the economies of the areas where they cruise, clean up after themselves, probably care far more about the marine environment than their landbased counterparts, and pay for facilities and services that they use. I hope that there will always be places where they are welcomed.

But those that think that the world exists for them to use without regard, who think that everything should be free for them and that they should be able to flop their floating trash heaps wherever they want and take/use whatever they can get their hands on with no regard for the effect they have on their environment, their neighbors, or the community, are ruining it for everyone. If this describes you, "thanks a lot."

[ElGatoGordo]

Originally Posted by liveaboardL

Whatever the bay is called, the government chart that I downloaded said on the chart that anchoring in the bay is illegal due to underground cables. Perhaps I misunderstood.


I don't expect anyone to clean my poop out of the water. I'm sure the fishes would love to do that. I'll bet dolphins do it.

I'll humbly bow out with apologies IF you post a pic of this supposed chart. You will not because it does not exist.

BTW, Dolphins eat other fish. I assume your statements mean you DO discharge illegally. Where ARE you anyway? Boat name?

Poop in constricted waters (Like my own Clear Lake, Texas) DOES harm the environment (Whether it comes from boats or poor city sewer systems). I FULLY support the NO discharge zone here and wish it was enforced. I also fully support the few people living at anchor here as long as they are being responsible.

Bottom line...I believe most can clearly see that the OP is likely one of those causing the issues. I'm glad they are the few, not the norm.

Someone who has some spare time can search the forum for all the cases of crappy, make-us-all-look-bad live-aboards. Like the guy in FL who drug anchor repeatedly and washed up on public beaches. The French couple from Oriental. The guy with the monster Cat in Richardson Bay that bit a guy. There have been so many. And they make the news and drive the regulations. Ever seen a prime time news piece about a nice couple living aboard a well kept boat following all the rules?

[forsailbyowner]

Cant wait to expatriate this "Free" country.