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Old 01-01-2015, 13:04   #226
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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........................................

.................................. My position as a sailor living aboard at anchor for most of the last 24 years, and aptly called a cruiser after completing the better part of two, 4.5 year global circumstances is obviously pro-liveaboard. But, my idea of living aboard includes changing my boats location every week or so. Sharing the space so to speak. But, due to relatively recent restrictions on anchoring in Clipper Cove and a four hour limit at the Jack London public dock, my ability to move around is seriously hampered. There's only one 'anchor out' in the Richardson Bay federal anchorage I know of who actually sails his boat - without an engine. The only time the rest leave their spot is when a strong norther or souther comes through...
In order to better align myself with you and garrobito, I should state that I understand the complaint with a subset of liveaboards that use boats as a means of low income housing.

My experiences are not in California, but in Florida where there has been an attempt to distinguish the rights of "liveaboards" and "cruisers" with legislation. Although I lament the negative connotation assigned to the term liveaboard, as the State of Florida defines them, as boats that are not underway occasionally and capable of navigation. Making this distinction will cause some that are marginally falling into the definition of one group to be subject to the restrictions and rights set upon the other group.

In earlier posts I have expressed a strong opinion that those living on boats should not be discriminated against because of the value of their boats, their ownership of real estate ashore or their wealth. On the other hand, I agree that those living on boats should be charged with obeying laws regulating overboard discharge, trespassing, mooring regulations and boating safety.
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Old 01-01-2015, 13:10   #227
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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There are many who consider it to be Paradise. We did visit it and found it quite nice.

And as to Richardson Bay. When we were in Sausalito, we had no problems with the anchored boats. Did have to come in carefully, but that's normal approaching a marina. We liked them in our view for the most part. The only time we observed a problem was between anchored boats. One boat was a nuisance with a boom box blasting and the nearest boat very kindly asked they turn it down, so they turned it up. Now turns out this was also the boat that broke loose that night and blew into another boat (fortunately no damage). Even after the light collision as the other boat owner prevented damage, the two people on the loose boat remained asleep below deck. Turns out very drunk.
Anyone arriving in Sausalito should exercise due dilligence in at least one respect when approaching or anchoring near other boats. Boats that appear to be anchored may actually be held in place by a mooring consisting of two or more anchors, arranged opposite one another with shackles and swivels hidden from your view. Mooring balls are eliminated from use because these moorings have been installed illegally, without a permit during the night. A ball would attract unwanted attention. I know at least one diver, unnamed, who's primary business is installing these moorings. Another feature you'll notice about these boats is they never leave... Appearances in Sausalito are not necessarily what you're led to believe.
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Old 01-01-2015, 13:26   #228
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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In order to better align myself with you and garrobito, I should state that I understand the complaint with a subset of liveaboards that use boats as a means of low income housing.

<snip>

In earlier posts I have expressed a strong opinion that those living on boats should not be discriminated against because of the value of their boats, their ownership of real estate ashore or their wealth. On the other hand, I agree that those living on boats should be charged with obeying laws regulating overboard discharge, trespassing, mooring regulations and boating safety.
I agree boat value is not a just measure upon which populations of boaters are judged and or rules and regulations formed. But, fair and equal opportunities for all boaters to use public waterways and anchorages must be a standard upon which everything else depends. Living aboard is typically low cost, but assumes owners spend money necessary to maintain a boats systems. Frankly, how a boot looks is down the list of measures... Way down. A boat is not a house that once built is meant to stay in one place. Move em out. They can come back if there's room at the inn...
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Old 02-01-2015, 23:21   #229
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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Any idea what effect the plan to tunnel water from the delta into the SFBay area will have on boaters accustomed to using the delta for fishing and living aboard? I heard the authorities emptied the delta of liveaboards. Do you credit your continued presence there to moving around?
Ah the delta tunnels, there's a hot bed of discussion. The main effect on the water ways will be the lock installed on the back side of franks track. and increased salinity further up the rivers. Not a problem at all when the folks want to send water south to LA.

Plus all the material removed from the twin 40 foot diameter 30 mile long tunnels, truck traffic, etc. That's going to be fun. The tunnels will divert fresh water further up the sacramento at courtland and divert it to the existing pumps at tracy where the pumps send it to LA. Currently the US EPA is against it as it will do more harm to the delta habitat. The study has gone back for a rewrite/ redesign at this time.

There are a few boats that have been living aboard for 30 years in the delta. Moving about does seem to keep the law away. I would get bored sitting in one place.
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Old 03-01-2015, 05:05   #230
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

Hmmm. It always surprises me when people aren't appreciated for what they bring to a community in terms of tourism and money. We are new to the cursing life and look forward to spending a few months on the ICW before we make our crossing to spend a year in the Caribbean. I guess I never thought about how we would be received. We like our boat and it is not like we are tying a mattress to the top of it. But... We do have 2 kids and a big dog that make a lot of noise and have been known to walk around without pants. Do the townsfolk look at us as the Beverly Hillbillies of the sea? Ugh. That would suck. We planned to make some accommodations for folks until we got on the open water such as washing our clothes at a laundry mat as opposed to the water and not line drying. We hoped to do a lot of touristy things such as sightseeing because my kids haven't spend much time in Florida. Joe Dirt might say, "Daaaaaaang!" I am feeling kind of sad after reading a few pages of this thread.
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Old 03-01-2015, 06:12   #231
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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Originally Posted by robert.hamic View Post
.................................................. ........... Do the townsfolk look at us as the Beverly Hillbillies of the sea? Ugh. That would suck. We planned to make some accommodations for folks until we got on the open water such as washing our clothes at a laundry mat as opposed to the water and not line drying. We hoped to do a lot of touristy things such as sightseeing because my kids haven't spend much time in Florida. Joe Dirt might say, "Daaaaaaang!" I am feeling kind of sad after reading a few pages of this thread.
There's no reason to expect problems with your plan it Florida as long as you do a little research and plan your anchoring with shore access opportunities. We've been cruising and anchoring in Florida since 1972 and we have never been contacted or question by anyone about our anchoring.

We find easy opportunities for anchoring in Florida, but only selected locations where we choose to anchor with dinghy access to shore. Many negative reactions for those that anchor out are related to the disrespect for private property. I always surprises me that some cruiers expect to tie the dinghy to a private dock and walk through someone's back yard carrying their laundry to the laundromat. We do often pay for a mooring or a slip for groceries and laundry.

Location is a huge factor! As I said, you can easily find a place to anchor without shore access or even with shore access in places without amenities; however, if you're looking for provisions and entertainment, restaurants, etc., you may need to pay for a dock or mooring. As an example, there are places on the ICW in Ft. Lauderdale where you may find a dock for $250 a night and then, just a few miles up the New River, for $50 a night. Other locations along the Florida East Coast will cost between $15 & $20 a night for a mooring with dinghy access, showers and access to all you might desire.

Daaaang, don't worry about your "ice cream melting"! Know your surroundings!
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Old 03-01-2015, 07:18   #232
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

I always ask about space for a transient sailor. Liveaboard has been given a bad name buy others before us.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
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Old 03-01-2015, 07:40   #233
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

Buying an Admiral hat, for anyone of the crew, kids included?

..

Well, it comes out that, if you pay, you"re welcome. And if you show like willing to pay more, you're even more welcomed.. uhuh! :-)
Abnice dress, a clean boat, a fat wallet... they do help ...
Sad to say, romance is gone
So please, do not bait around with concepts like Sense of Community, Decency, Environmemtal Respect, Etiquette, i make no noise!, etc :-):-)
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Old 03-01-2015, 08:32   #234
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

I bet boat liveaboards at welcome overall in most places, and boat bums overall are not.
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Old 03-01-2015, 08:47   #235
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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If "capsize" means to defend many that liveaboard boats and are honorable citizens, then yes.

Members of my family have lived aboard boats for an accumulative 117 years. I would not want them or others maligned by grouping them into a class of vagrants and criminals.
I'm a liveaboard and I was for the last 25 years... I do not like free liveaboard over the water using the water as an excuse to steal, do drugs (sorry mate I do not like drugs in front of my children), smoke pot (I do not care if now is legal.. I do not want it close to me..), have sex, bring hookers, and not paid for the marine services (including use the shower) who I paid for...
I was a free liveaboard when no marina have any service and when was allowed around the world but have a difference between that or anchor for few days and make a community for years on public waters.
Sorry if you dislike my comment, but have a huge difference between simply anchor to enjoy the place, take few picture, make tourism and anchor a boat at the end of his lifetime, then anchor another one, cover with plastic tarp and stay there... for years...
They're not sailors, they're not boat who are on a trip.. they're homeless in a boat...
Boats on richardson bay for example are there for years; it's like a little poor city just in front of a big, rich city (what a irony!!) and like it or not, it's a liability for navigation and raised safety concern about sinking and contaminate the bay...
The capsize word pointed that..
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Old 03-01-2015, 09:11   #236
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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Ah the delta tunnels, there's a hot bed of discussion. The main effect on the water ways will be the lock installed on the back side of franks track. and increased salinity further up the rivers. Not a problem at all when the folks want to send water south to LA.

Plus all the material removed from the twin 40 foot diameter 30 mile long tunnels, truck traffic, etc. That's going to be fun. The tunnels will divert fresh water further up the sacramento at courtland and divert it to the existing pumps at tracy where the pumps send it to LA. Currently the US EPA is against it as it will do more harm to the delta habitat. The study has gone back for a rewrite/ redesign at this time.

There are a few boats that have been living aboard for 30 years in the delta. Moving about does seem to keep the law away. I would get bored sitting in one place.
It's great having a Cruisersforum member with your combination of knowledge and experience. When we need a balanced opinion on the subject of living aboard there you are. And, when we ask for information about the effect of tunnels moving huge quantities of water from the delta, we receive a relevant answer. Where to buy the best tones of pink paint too!

Thanks!
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Old 03-01-2015, 09:54   #237
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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I agree boat value is not a just measure upon which populations of boaters are judged and or rules and regulations formed. But, fair and equal opportunities for all boaters to use public waterways and anchorages must be a standard upon which everything else depends. Living aboard is typically low cost, but assumes owners spend money necessary to maintain a boats systems. Frankly, how a boot looks is down the list of measures... Way down. A boat is not a house that once built is meant to stay in one place. Move em out. They can come back if there's room at the inn...
I just want to add that there is room enough in Richardson Bay to divide the area into two areas, a mooring field and an anchorage. In the mooring field a number of the moorings can be designated for general use bearing the same limits and obligations as existing port mooring balls. The balance could be reserved for special cases of low income boaters needing temporary, medium term habitat while they work toward recovery from extraordinary, unfortunate circumstances like loss of income from economic dislocation, illness or injury. We already have models of successful programs 'on the hard' that can be used in managing these moorings.

No private moorings of any type allowed.

The area reserved for anchoring must come with minimum standards that must be met before dropping your hook. The standards could reasonably take the time of year into account.

1.) Absolutely no mooring of any type is permitted in this area.
2.) Because of the fact Richardson Bay can be affected by strong winter storms with wind gusts upwards of 40 knots, arriving from the north and south quadrants, boats must have adequately sized primary and secondary anchors. The primary anchor must be connected to the boat with all chain and snubbed.
3.) Boats using the anchorage must have a means of propulsion, or in the case there is none - as rarely occurs with sailors like the Pardees - a waiver of this rule must be obtained.
4.) In no case can a boat anchor continuously in one spot for more than a reasonable period of time. I myself would have no objection to having to move once every seven days. If this rule leads to a situation where, due to the number of boats in the anchorage there is no place in which to move.... Well, the purpose of this rule has been realized. It's to ensure everybody has fair and equal opportunities to use the anchorage.
5.) When re-anchoring boats are required to move a minimum of X number of boat lengths from the last place where the boat was anchored.
6.) If sailors who wish to anchor were safety conscious, courteous, considerate and willing to share an anchorage with others, none of this crap would be required. But...
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Old 03-01-2015, 10:00   #238
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

Care about Anchoring Rights in Florida, and coming soon to an anchorage near you?

Then watch this FREE Webinar on January 6th put on by the SSCA.
In my opinion the price of SSCA membership each year is worth it just for this Anchoring Rights issue alone! Phil Johnson does amazing work.

A Florida Anchoring Update

Duration: 1.5 Hours
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2015 at 8:00 pm U.S. EST
Presenter: Phil Johnson
Course Fee: Free - SSCA Members / Free - Non-Members
Webinar - Join us live!
Whether you reside in Florida, pass through Florida on your boat or you are just concerned about boaters rights in general, you will not want to miss this presentation. Florida has some real issues with abandoned boats, but that issue should be confused with anchoring regulations.

Phil is the chair of the Seven Seas Cruising Association's Concerned Cruisers Committee and he will update you on the very latest attempts for local Florida communities to restrict your ability to drop the hook in a safe anchorage. Everyone needs to be informed and involved to ensure our anchoring rights are preserved.

After attending this presentation you will:
  • Understand why this issue is important to SSCA members and all boaters
  • Understand the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission (FWC) plans
  • Understand why it is so important to keep anchoring regulations at the state level
  • Hear the results of the August-September Anchoring Survey and their implications
Phil originally presented this information at the Annapolis Gam in September and now this is a chance to bring this information to all the membership.

Phil plans to bring an update to Seven Seas U and any call to action based on the latest Florida Anchoring Survey when the results are published later in 2015.

The live webinar will last approximately 90 minutes. You will need Internet access to participate in this live session
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Old 03-01-2015, 10:02   #239
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrong View Post
I just want to add that there is room enough in Richardson Bay to divide the area into two areas, a mooring field and an anchorage. In the mooring field a number of the moorings can be designated for general use bearing the same limits and obligations as existing port mooring balls. The balance could be reserved for special cases of low income boaters needing temporary, medium term habitat while they work toward recovery from extraordinary, unfortunate circumstances like loss of income from economic dislocation, illness or injury. We already have models of successful programs 'on the hard' that can be used in managing these moorings.

No private moorings of any type allowed.

The area reserved for anchoring must come with minimum standards that must be met before dropping your hook. The standards could reasonably take the time of year into account.

1.) Absolutely no mooring of any type is permitted in this area.
2.) Because of the fact Richardson Bay can be affected by strong winter storms with wind gusts upwards of 40 knots, arriving from the north and south quadrants, boats must have adequately sized primary and secondary anchors. The primary anchor must be connected to the boat with all chain and snubbed.
3.) Boats using the anchorage must have a means of propulsion, or in the case there is none - as rarely occurs with sailors like the Pardees - a waiver of this rule must be obtained.
4.) In no case can a boat anchor continuously in one spot for more than a reasonable period of time. I myself would have no objection to having to move once every seven days. If this rule leads to a situation where, due to the number of boats in the anchorage there is no place in which to move.... Well, the purpose of this rule has been realized. It's to ensure everybody has fair and equal opportunities to use the anchorage.
5.) When re-anchoring boats are required to move a minimum of X number of boat lengths from the last place where the boat was anchored.
6.) If sailors who wish to anchor were safety conscious, courteous, considerate and willing to share an anchorage with others, none of this crap would be required. But...

..Nice proposal!! We need something like that on Richardson Bay.. Under strong wind tried to go inside Richardson Bay Marina or KKMI could be an adventure..
Yes, advise about the mooring balls and double anchor, pretty common on anchored boats.. stay awake and open eyes.. come slow, follow the mark channel and good luck!!
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Old 03-01-2015, 10:04   #240
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Re: Are Liveaboards Unwanted? Disliked? All over Everywhere?

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Hmmm. It always surprises me when people aren't appreciated for what they bring to a community in terms of tourism and money. We are new to the cursing life and look forward to spending a few months on the ICW before we make our crossing to spend a year in the Caribbean. I guess I never thought about how we would be received. We like our boat and it is not like we are tying a mattress to the top of it. But... We do have 2 kids and a big dog that make a lot of noise and have been known to walk around without pants. Do the townsfolk look at us as the Beverly Hillbillies of the sea? Ugh. That would suck. We planned to make some accommodations for folks until we got on the open water such as washing our clothes at a laundry mat as opposed to the water and not line drying. We hoped to do a lot of touristy things such as sightseeing because my kids haven't spend much time in Florida. Joe Dirt might say, "Daaaaaaang!" I am feeling kind of sad after reading a few pages of this thread.
Well, your fears about how you'll be received are unwarranted. Cruisers are welcome and encouraged in most places. Facilities exist to make your travels enjoyable. You show basic respect and courtesy and you'll receive it. These are areas that thrive on tourism.

If you let your kids run wild, screaming and yelling and unsupervised that will be poorly received. Failing to scoop after your dog will be. Tying up at a private dock of someone you don't know will be. Anchoring 20' from a private dock may be. Dumping untreated sewage will be. Expecting everything for free will be.

But most reasonable people don't do those things. They anchor or dock and are courteous and respectful. They are willing and expecting to pay for the services they use. And you will also be among others similar to you and can make as many new friends as you desire.

Being poorly received isn't limited to any specific group. Thing is, most marinas treat even the rude obnoxious customers well. I know of one 120' $20 million dollar boat in South Florida that the dock boys call something I can't type here. They pull in and it doesn't matter how many other customers there, they expect everyone to turn their attention to them. Don't want to wait to fuel. They don't like taking their place in line. Have dock hands running left and right and have never tipped a dollar in their life. (They are also well known in restaurants). The funniest episode I ever saw with them was the day their icemaker failed. So they had the dock hands running around to get 50 bags of ice and then wondered what they'd put it in. The owner took one of the marina trash cans and took the bag out and said he'd use that and headed for his boat with it. The dock hands got the dockmaster. He walks over and asks, "Did you just steal our trash can?" The owner responded saying he needed it for ice. The dockmaster asked how many bags of ice and was told 100. He said, well, that will be $400 for ice and $200 for my trash can. The owner was appalled he would charge him with all the fuel he bought. An impasse developed and the the dock boys removed all the ice from the boat and the can. The just sat the ice down by the dock and as soon as the boat left loudly announced "Free Ice for any of you who can use it."
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