Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 08-11-2013, 11:45   #451
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: Affordable Care Act - catastrophic plans cancelled

Quote:
Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
Mark, without being argumentative, why are the two prescription drugs I take, one from Germany and the other from Switzerland five times and three times as expensive in the US as in Canada? These are common drugs nothing exotic.
Canada does not have a free-market for pharmaceutical companies. They must negotiate prices with a primary purchaser that has a lot of power (the government). You will actually find that some drugs are not available in some countries because the pharmaceutical company and the government could not agree in negotiations and the pharmaceutical company decided not to sell in that market.

In the US, you are paying the free-market price for those drugs.

Yours is not an argumentative question in any way. I think you may have been confused in thinking that only US companies can partake in the US free market.

Mark
__________________

__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply
Old 08-11-2013, 11:46   #452
Senior Cruiser
 
skipmac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 29 49.16 N 82 25.82 W
Boat: Pearson 422
Posts: 12,381
Re: Affordable Care Act - catastrophic plans cancelled

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo485 View Post
Are you using slang against such countries as:

Estados Unidos Mexicanos
Estados Unidos do Brasil
and various others....?

Look at the name of your country in your own passport. You are burying yourself deeper in your own ignorance....

Sorry, I can't help any further..... but I have to observe that it is this same attitude that stunts your health care, puts a man on the moon, invades a country on the basis of a lie, etc...
Respectfully have to disagree with this. I have been to Mexico and Brazil, most of Europe and a few other places. Common usage in every country I've visited is to refer to the United States of America as the United States (or Estados Unidos in Spanish) or the US or occasionally USA.

What is not considered polite by some is to call it America or the citizens Americans, even though that designation is used not just by many US citizens but also many friends in Europe. The point being we are indeed only one country of many in the Americas, North, Central and South.
__________________

__________________
The water is always bluer on the other side of the ocean.
skipmac is offline   Reply
Old 08-11-2013, 11:48   #453
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatInHand View Post
.
These events are a minority compared to general care throughout a lifetime.
We are talking about prescriptive healthcare here , lets not dance on semantics. In any prescriptive healthcare the consumer has little option but to " buy" the procedure or the associated prescriptive drugs.

We not talking about the anadin market

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply
Old 08-11-2013, 11:51   #454
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post

Canada does not have a free-market for pharmaceutical companies. They must negotiate prices with a primary purchaser that has a lot of power (the government). You will actually find that some drugs are not available in some countries because the pharmaceutical company and the government could not agree in negotiations and the pharmaceutical company decided not to sell in that market.

In the US, you are paying the free-market price for those drugs.

Yours is not an argumentative question in any way. I think you may have been confused in thinking that only US companies can partake in the US free market.

Mark
Lets just stay within the bounds of most people's Healthcare needs , not the exotics. We are talking about normal elective treatments and common emergency treatments.

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply
Old 08-11-2013, 11:53   #455
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: Affordable Care Act - catastrophic plans cancelled

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
In the prescription drugs market the consumer is COMPLETLY constrained. He or she cannot change the prescription , cannot forgo the treatment ( or die which is absurd ) a person with a genetic predisposition to high cholesterol or hypertension does not have a lot of " options"

Hence it is not a free market. The consumer is effectively " forced" to by the product. When you allow a free market supply , you get profiteering , which is not a form of collusion , it is a function of the inelasticity of demand.

No more then if you gave 3M the rights to the atmosphere. !!!

Dave
I understand how you are thinking, but the elasticity is greater than you think. For example, the patient can change the prescription to a generic and less expensive drug if available. The patient can choose a pharmacy where the drug is 50% less than another pharmacy (Walmart and Costco have driven down drug prices more than anyone). The patient can mail-order their drug from either a wholesaler or another country (within legal restrictions). The patient can order a 3 month supply at a much cheaper price than a 2-week supply. The patient can walk across a border and buy it for less.

Not perfect elasticity, but also not the rigidness you think.

Let me ask this - ignoring the ethical/emotional aspects of relative necessity, how much elasticity is present in buying a specific make and model of new car? Do you find dealers and prices not controlled by the manufacturer? Do you find 50% swings in prices between dealers? Is it possible to travel to other cities/states/countries to get a better deal on an automobile?

Do you consider that a free market?

Mark
__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply
Old 08-11-2013, 11:53   #456
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,440
Re: Affordable Care Act - catastrophic plans cancelled

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
I already did. In a previous post. Meetings are held with economists, lawyers, etc and the market for the product is determined and dissected. Pricing is set based on what those market conditions will bear.

There is no collusion with service providers or insurance companies or governments to set high prices. They price to what the market will bear. The prices are not higher, because the profits would be lower. The same for why the prices are not lower.

Mark
This isn't a description of a free market. This is a description of how the pharmaceutical company analyzes the regulatory and market forces in order to price products, and then tries to manipulate those forces as much as possible through lobbying efforts.

Do you even know what a free market is?

If you want to know exactly how easy this market is to manipulate, see this article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/09/us...care.html?_r=0

There are lots of vested interests trying to protect their profits, and legislation/regulation is very critical.


Often, pharmaceutical companies get caught directly colluding with each other to set prices, and then they pay big fines.

Simply google "pharmaceutical company price fixing", and you will find countless numbers of these incidences.
__________________
letsgetsailing3 is offline   Reply
Old 08-11-2013, 11:54   #457
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: Affordable Care Act - catastrophic plans cancelled

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Lets just stay within the bounds of most people's Healthcare needs , not the exotics. We are talking about normal elective treatments and common emergency treatments.

Dave
I don't understand. I was just talking about normal prescription drug prices in Canada vs. the US.

Mark
__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply
Old 08-11-2013, 11:56   #458
Registered User
 
avb3's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Florida/Alberta
Boat: Lippincott 30
Posts: 9,913
Images: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatInHand View Post
There are actually two price structures for prescription drugs depending on the patent status.

If a drug is patented, you pay what the manufacturer thinks you should pay, otherwise it's pretty much free market.

Are your drugs still under patent in the U.S.?
They are under patent in both countries.
__________________
If your attitude resembles the south end of a bull heading north, it's time to turn around.
avb3 is offline   Reply
Old 08-11-2013, 11:57   #459
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,440
Re: Affordable Care Act - catastrophic plans cancelled

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
For example, the patient can change the prescription to a generic and less expensive drug if available. The patient can choose a pharmacy where the drug is 50% less than another pharmacy (Walmart and Costco have driven down drug prices more than anyone). The patient can mail-order their drug from either a wholesaler or another country (within legal restrictions). The patient can order a 3 month supply at a much cheaper price than a 2-week supply. The patient can walk across a border and buy it for less.

Mark

If a patient has pharmaceutical coverage with a fixed co-pay, what is their incentive to do this?

Much of the cross-border pharmaceutical purchasing is regulated or illegal.

Wouldn't it be better to open up the markets, at least in the cases where the prescription drug is exactly the same product?
__________________
letsgetsailing3 is offline   Reply
Old 08-11-2013, 11:58   #460
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Seattle
Boat: Catalina 36
Posts: 282
Re: Affordable Care Act - catastrophic plans cancelled

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
We are talking about prescriptive healthcare here , lets not dance on semantics. In any prescriptive healthcare the consumer has little option but to " buy" the procedure or the associated prescriptive drugs.

We not talking about the anadin market

Dave
It has been my experience that the majority of prescription drugs are, in reality, optional.

Proper health for a lifetime virtually eliminates the need for most drugs.

Rarely do you need drugs for hypertension, illness, impotence, heartburn, high cholesterol, etc.

One has to wonder how necessary many of the mood-altering drugs would be if other methods were available (group therapy or something).

How many of these would really be necessary with better diet and exercise?

The 10 Most Prescribed Drugs

Quote:
Hydrocodone (combined with acetaminophen) -- 131.2 million prescriptions
Generic Zocor (simvastatin), a cholesterol-lowering statin drug -- 94.1 million prescriptions
Lisinopril (brand names include Prinivil and Zestril), a blood pressure drug -- 87.4 million prescriptions
Generic Synthroid (levothyroxine sodium), synthetic thyroid hormone -- 70.5 million prescriptions
Generic Norvasc (amlodipine besylate), an angina/blood pressure drug -- 57.2 million prescriptions
Generic Prilosec (omeprazole), an antacid drug -- 53.4 million prescriptions (does not include over-the-counter sales)
Azithromycin (brand names include Z-Pak and Zithromax), an antibiotic -- 52.6 million prescriptions
Amoxicillin (various brand names), an antibiotic -- 52.3 million prescriptions
Generic Glucophage (metformin), a diabetes drug -- 48.3 million prescriptions
Hydrochlorothiazide (various brand names), a water pill used to lower blood pressure -- 47.8 million prescriptions.
__________________
The Other Woman
CatInHand is offline   Reply
Old 08-11-2013, 12:00   #461
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Seattle
Boat: Catalina 36
Posts: 282
Re: Affordable Care Act - catastrophic plans cancelled

Quote:
Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
They are under patent in both countries.
Then you're paying the price that the US company that sells the drug has set.
__________________
The Other Woman
CatInHand is offline   Reply
Old 08-11-2013, 12:01   #462
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,440
Re: Affordable Care Act - catastrophic plans cancelled

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatInHand View Post
It has been my experience that the majority of prescription drugs are, in reality, optional.

Proper health for a lifetime virtually eliminates the need for most drugs.

Rarely do you need drugs for hypertension, illness, impotence, heartburn, high cholesterol, etc.

One has to wonder how necessary many of the mood-altering drugs would be if other methods were available (group therapy or something).

How many of these would really be necessary with better diet and exercise?

The 10 Most Prescribed Drugs

True. But the health care industry would lose lots of profits.
__________________
letsgetsailing3 is offline   Reply
Old 08-11-2013, 12:04   #463
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post

I understand how you are thinking, but the elasticity is greater than you think. For example, the patient can change the prescription to a generic and less expensive drug if available. The patient can choose a pharmacy where the drug is 50% less than another pharmacy (Walmart and Costco have driven down drug prices more than anyone). The patient can mail-order their drug from either a wholesaler or another country (within legal restrictions). The patient can order a 3 month supply at a much cheaper price than a 2-week supply. The patient can walk across a border and buy it for less.

Not perfect elasticity, but also not the rigidness you think.

Let me ask this - ignoring the ethical/emotional aspects of relative necessity, how much elasticity is present in buying a specific make and model of new car? Do you find dealers and prices not controlled by the manufacturer? Do you find 50% swings in prices between dealers? Is it possible to travel to other cities/states/countries to get a better deal on an automobile?

Do you consider that a free market?

Mark
There is a fundamental difference. One can't forgo treatment , whereas one can not only change ones choice of car completely , one can forgo the whole purchase without life threatening consequences.

Maybe your wife writes you a prescription for a new car and you feel you can't buy anything else. The rest of us have a gamut running from a crap banger to rolls Royce and ultimately abstinence , that " feedback " loop controls pricing because there is significant elasticity of demand.

Prescriptive Healthcare consumers has no such options and its ridiculous to argue they do. I talking both about medical procedures, hospital stay costs and prescription drugs.

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply
Old 08-11-2013, 12:05   #464
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: Affordable Care Act - catastrophic plans cancelled

Quote:
Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3 View Post
This isn't a description of a free market. This is a description of how the pharmaceutical company analyzes the regulatory and market forces in order to price products, and then tries to manipulate those forces as much as possible through lobbying efforts.

Do you even know what a free market is?

If you want to know exactly how easy this market is to manipulate, see this article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/09/us...care.html?_r=0

There are lots of vested interests trying to protect their profits, and legislation/regulation is very critical.


Often, pharmaceutical companies get caught directly colluding with each other to set prices, and then they pay big fines.

Simply google "pharmaceutical company price fixing", and you will find countless numbers of these incidences.
Wow, I don't know what to say to you anymore. "Analyz(ing) the regulatory and market forces in order to price products" isn't how free markets work? Can you think of any other companies operating in free markets that do not analyze the regulatory and market forces to set prices?

You then throw on lobbying for good measure. Can you think of any free-market industries that also have lobbyists? Does having lobbyists disqualify them as operating in a free-market?

I suggest you google your own phrase and actually read those articles. You will find that the collusion and price fixing is on the generic side of the equation, not the NCE side.

Please explain to me how a company with patent protection to be the sole manufacturer and distributor of a drug can collude with other companies to fix the price of that drug. I will give you a hint: the key words are patent protection and sole supplier. Look up "collusion" and "price-fixing" and compare to those key words.

Mark
__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply
Old 08-11-2013, 12:05   #465
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post

I don't understand. I was just talking about normal prescription drug prices in Canada vs. the US.

Mark
I meant this isn't about the price of aspirin

Dave
__________________

__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:20.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.