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Old 03-02-2016, 02:52   #31
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Re: 9 Americans arrested in Saudi Arabia accused of cobtact with terrorists

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulawayo View Post
Hi Rustic Charm ...... I dont agree with 100% with either of your views but do agree, to some extent with elements of both. Fair enough

Sadly, the child bride situation exists in many countries. It is not as rare as you state. Seven year olds given as brides is much rarer. Yes, it is rare.. in fact you will struggle to name anywhere that it is common or the norm. There are very isolated places in India (not a Islamic places) and mainly in Africa and South America.

Indeed, in Britain, which many shall agree is a pretty modern country, there is a move to acceptance of Sharia law. Sharia criminal law does not exist in Britain. There are Sharia councils which are accepted as part of practicising Islam. What I suspect you and most people who criticise 'sharia' don't understand that 'sharia' refers to the same thing as Christians call 'the way' or 'walking the path'.

Girls there are being subject to mutilation of genitalia mutilation in the name of religion. FGM is a social problem and is not accepted in ANY religion. It's illegal throughout Britain.

The UK has also known honour killings in the name of religion. Yes and how many? I mean, seriously how many rapes, murders, domestic violence assaults are committed by white anglo saxon's? Far more than your citing the extreemly rare 'honour killing' which is always prosecuted by police to the full extent of the law when evidence permits.

I wish it were correct that these situations are rare but travel to many Islamic nations and you'll discover that they are not rare but actually very common place - normal in fact. Not there not. Radical Islam is not the normal anywhere.. It's only the norm in the eyes of people who want to demonise them.

Again, countries like India and Nigeria which are not presently Islamic also suffer such happenings enmasse. I mention this due to the size of their populations. Both of these nations are headed for Islamism. Islamism That does not immediately make them 'bad' nations but when the extremists get into power then they often become less desirable places to visit. Afain, when I say extremists I refer to non necessarily representing the views of the majority of the population. Much like first world countries having extreme governments - e.g Germany and Italy in the 1930's to mid-1940's. However, their governments were elected by the population due to a decline in their economic situations. Fortunately, democracy provides for change. We have spent many a great time in Islamic countries like Oman - which are very welcoming, very, very pro-western and very relaxed in religious matters. We do, however, respect their custom of not flaunting skin in public places (the beach excepted). Good for you.. my point too.


As for racists, there is an element of that in many people, many governments and many other facets of life. This appears to be acceptable when displayed by some groups but not so acceptable by others. Look at what is happening in Zimbabwe right now where the Governnment openly discriminates against Europeans and Asians, as well as Zimbabweans of the alternative tribal group. Why is this only marginally commented upon by the governments of the world?
Anyway, this supposed to be a sailing community and for exchange of yottie information so I'll shut up on this sensitive subject. Best wishes to you both.
As yachties we will also improve out lot being being 'informed' and recognizing myths. Understanding what terms like 'Sharia' mean.
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Old 03-02-2016, 03:32   #32
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Re: 9 Americans arrested in Saudi Arabia accused of cobtact with terrorists

Hi Rustic Charm ...... I dont agree with 100% with either of your views but do agree, to some extent with elements of both. Fair enough

Sadly, the child bride situation exists in many countries. It is not as rare as you state. Seven year olds given as brides is much rarer. Yes, it is rare.. in fact you will struggle to name anywhere that it is common or the norm. There are very isolated places in India (not a Islamic places) and mainly in Africa and South America.

Sadly, you are mistaken. The practice is pretty widespread. They might not all be seven years old but that is being pedantic. Twelve is more common but to many that is still unacceptably young and does not consider the child wishes – they are too young to make such decisions. This happens all over the Middle East, most of Africa and much of Asia. That is not limited. We have travelled these regions extensively and have seen it first hand. Presently, depending on where you read, India is 20-30% Islamic. It is the fastest growing group in India and is expected to be the majority religion by 2070.

Indeed, in Britain, which many shall agree is a pretty modern country, there is a move to acceptance of Sharia law. Sharia criminal law does not exist in Britain. There are Sharia councils which are accepted as part of practicising Islam. What I suspect you and most people who criticise 'sharia' don't understand that 'sharia' refers to the same thing as Christians call 'the way' or 'walking the path'.

Please re-read my posting. No one said it was criminal law. However, Sharia law, in parallel with UK law is already being openly discussed at Government level and Sharia law is being accepted in decision making at local levels with government acceptance. This is published so cannot be denied.
To my mind Sharia has no place in the UK and the communities there should be subject to the same laws as the general public. Should you visit an Islamic country you'll be subject to the prevailing law system.


Girls there are being subject to mutilation of genitalia mutilation in the name of religion. FGM is a social problem and is not accepted in ANY religion. It's illegal throughout Britain.

Of course it is accepted! Go to many Islamic states and see it practiced. Not accepted? Then why do hospitals conduct this operation in Qatar (to quote just one example)?

The UK has also known honour killings in the name of religion. Yes and how many? I mean, seriously how many rapes, murders, domestic violence assaults are committed by white anglo saxon's? Far more than your citing the extreemly rare 'honour killing' which is always prosecuted by police to the full extent of the law when evidence permits.

Once again, incorrect information / bias. Even one honour killing is not acceptable in my book even if you do defend it. In Britain the known cases may be rare (as far as we know, as they may not be known) – trying to deflect this with other statements does not hide the fact.Travel to India and discover the number of honour killings – substantial – just as they are in the Middle East. Again, I state this based on my own experiences.

I wish it were correct that these situations are rare but travel to many Islamic nations and you'll discover that they are not rare but actually very common place - normal in fact. Not there not. Radical Islam is not the normal anywhere.. It's only the norm in the eyes of people who want to demonise them.
No point trying to debate this – go to the region yourself ( I have, and for long periods) and the local people shall tell you the facts themselves. Subjugating people by fear does not make the radicals correct. The majority of the Islamic people I have met are no different to anyone else that I have met and equally abhor the extremists. It does not prevent the extremists getting into power though.

Again, countries like India and Nigeria which are not presently Islamic also suffer such happenings enmasse. I mention this due to the size of their populations. Both of these nations are headed for Islamism. Islamism
[IMG]file://localhost/Users/chrishamilton/Library/Caches/TemporaryItems/msoclip/0clip_image002.png[/IMG](Your point is….?) That does not immediately make them 'bad' nations but when the extremists get into power then they often become less desirable places to visit. Afain, when I say extremists I refer to non necessarily representing the views of the majority of the population. Much like first world countries having extreme governments - e.g Germany and Italy in the 1930's to mid-1940's. However, their governments were elected by the population due to a decline in their economic situations. Fortunately, democracy provides for change. We have spent many a great time in Islamic countries like Oman - which are very welcoming, very, very pro-western and very relaxed in religious matters. We do, however, respect their custom of not flaunting skin in public places (the beach excepted). Good for you.. my point too.


As for racists, there is an element of that in many people, many governments and many other facets of life. This appears to be acceptable when displayed by some groups but not so acceptable by others. Look at what is happening in Zimbabwe right now where the Governnment openly discriminates against Europeans and Asians, as well as Zimbabweans of the alternative tribal group. Why is this only marginally commented upon by the governments of the world?
Anyway, this supposed to be a sailing community and for exchange of yottie information so I'll shut up on this sensitive subject. Best wishes to you both.

As for Sharia law - my knowledge is pretty extensive on the subject; I have also spent many, many years cruising the regions of the Indian Ocean and Red Sea. In this time I have seen changes creeping across the region and the changes do not sit comfortably on my shoulders and these changes are influential on us changing our cruising area. I do base my posting on conjecture or on a brief visit but rather on over 20 years of regional experience. Note that we immersed ourselves in the local cultures to the extent of learning conversational Arabic. This does not make me an expert by any means but my understanding and experiences are relevant.

This is my last posting on this subject.



Originally Posted by Bulawayo
Hi Rustic Charm ...... I dont agree with 100% with either of your views but do agree, to some extent with elements of both. Fair enough

Sadly, the child bride situation exists in many countries. It is not as rare as you state. Seven year olds given as brides is much rarer. Yes, it is rare.. in fact you will struggle to name anywhere that it is common or the norm. There are very isolated places in India (not a Islamic places) and mainly in Africa and South America.


Indeed, in Britain, which many shall agree is a pretty modern country, there is a move to acceptance of Sharia law. Sharia criminal law does not exist in Britain. There are Sharia councils which are accepted as part of practicising Islam. What I suspect you and most people who criticise 'sharia' don't understand that 'sharia' refers to the same thing as Christians call 'the way' or 'walking the path'.

Girls there are being subject to mutilation of genitalia mutilation in the name of religion. FGM is a social problem and is not accepted in ANY religion. It's illegal throughout Britain.

The UK has also known honour killings in the name of religion. Yes and how many? I mean, seriously how many rapes, murders, domestic violence assaults are committed by white anglo saxon's? Far more than your citing the extreemly rare 'honour killing' which is always prosecuted by police to the full extent of the law when evidence permits.

I wish it were correct that these situations are rare but travel to many Islamic nations and you'll discover that they are not rare but actually very common place - normal in fact. Not there not. Radical Islam is not the normal anywhere.. It's only the norm in the eyes of people who want to demonise them.

Again, countries like India and Nigeria which are not presently Islamic also suffer such happenings enmasse. I mention this due to the size of their populations. Both of these nations are headed for Islamism. Islamism That does not immediately make them 'bad' nations but when the extremists get into power then they often become less desirable places to visit. Afain, when I say extremists I refer to non necessarily representing the views of the majority of the population. Much like first world countries having extreme governments - e.g Germany and Italy in the 1930's to mid-1940's. However, their governments were elected by the population due to a decline in their economic situations. Fortunately, democracy provides for change. We have spent many a great time in Islamic countries like Oman - which are very welcoming, very, very pro-western and very relaxed in religious matters. We do, however, respect their custom of not flaunting skin in public places (the beach excepted). Good for you.. my point too.


As for racists, there is an element of that in many people, many governments and many other facets of life. This appears to be acceptable when displayed by some groups but not so acceptable by others. Look at what is happening in Zimbabwe right now where the Governnment openly discriminates against Europeans and Asians, as well as Zimbabweans of the alternative tribal group. Why is this only marginally commented upon by the governments of the world?
Anyway, this supposed to be a sailing community and for exchange of yottie information so I'll shut up on this sensitive subject. Best wishes to you both.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
As yachties we will also improve out lot being being 'informed' and recognizing myths. Understanding what terms like 'Sharia' mean.
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Old 03-02-2016, 04:52   #33
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pirate Re: 9 Americans arrested in Saudi Arabia accused of cobtact with terrorists

Island Time... if you think that upto maybe 30yrs ago the 'Natives' looked up to us white folks you either only travel to kiss ass places close to home.. or have never veered from the beaten track of surface 'civilisation'..
Back in the 60's the old folk who remembered the Brit's ruling India used to tell me they wished the English had stayed.. they were sadden by what had happened to their country.. and the corruption and rapid decay brought about by their National saviours..
Politicians are like short term social housing tenants.. rarely builders or maintainers.. just a short term self interest motivation
The 'Natives' have NEVER 'looked up to us..' that's just romantic bullshit in books.. like 'a normal childhood'.. its just the white mans ego-centric blinkers that confuse traditional courtesy for humility to a superior..
That's why your so useless at dealing with people in the Mid-East.. no traditions, no style and no class.. Do a deal, Turn a $ and Go..
They want the $$'s and deal as well but its more like..
"My frend.. lets take our time.. eat.. drink.. chill..!!
If Allah wills it.. it will come about in its own time..!!"
And that does your heads in..
Bulawayo...
As for India being Islamised... that's the Joke of the Year.
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Old 03-02-2016, 05:18   #34
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Re: 9 Americans arrested in Saudi Arabia accused of cobtact with terrorists

Realy, Boatman? You are not very aware then are you. This is a statement not a question. The subject is constantly and openly discussed within India and has been debated by the Indian Government.
Of course, you might well know more then the Indian Govt.
The 2011 Indian census also highlights the changing demographics - not that anyone who cares to consider this a joke would be interested in facts.
Go to India and discuss this matter with the Hindu population - a few years ago they also considered it a joke - nowadays there is far more consideration to this 'joke' as you refer to it.
Its a bit like waving a piece of paper and claiming 'Peace in our Time' .... and that statement proved just as worthless when it also did not last even twelve months.
Read articles like:
Indian Census and Muslim population growth
India’s Growing Muslim Population: A Political Challenge? | The Diplomat

Note reference to the percentages - 33% Moslem and rising rapidly? 50% faster then the Hindu's? I assume you can do the math just as many of us can.
Look at Nigeria..... it was not that long ago when the figures were 70/30 Christian/Moslem. Now the numbers are reversed.

Of course it is apparent that many people fire of their email postings without adequate knowledge although they have a self belief that they know far more then others. There are none so blind as those that refuse to see.
You certainly do joke.
Regardless...I am not sure of the benefits of debating this matter on a yottie forum. I also see no merit of having this discussion with people that fire from the hip. Have a good day.
OUT.



Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Island Time... if you think that upto maybe 30yrs ago the 'Natives' looked up to us white folks you either only travel to kiss ass places close to home.. or have never veered from the beaten track of surface 'civilisation'..
Back in the 60's the old folk who remembered the Brit's ruling India used to tell me they wished the English had stayed.. they were sadden by what had happened to their country.. and the corruption and rapid decay brought about by their National saviours..
Politicians are like short term social housing tenants.. rarely builders or maintainers.. just a short term self interest motivation
The 'Natives' have NEVER 'looked up to us..' that's just romantic bullshit in books.. like 'a normal childhood'.. its just the white mans ego-centric blinkers that confuse traditional courtesy for humility to a superior..
That's why your so useless at dealing with people in the Mid-East.. no traditions, no style and no class.. Do a deal, Turn a $ and Go..
They want the $$'s and deal as well but its more like..
"My frend.. lets take our time.. eat.. drink.. chill..!!
If Allah wills it.. it will come about in its own time..!!"
And that does your heads in..
Bulawayo...
As for India being Islamised... that's the Joke of the Year.
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Old 03-02-2016, 05:22   #35
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Re: 9 Americans arrested in Saudi Arabia accused of cobtact with terrorists

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulawayo View Post
Realy, Boatman? You are not very aware then are you. This is a statement not a question. The subject is constantly and openly discussed within India and has been debated by the Indian Government.
Of course, you might well know more then the Indian Govt.
The 2011 Indian census also highlights the changing demographics - not that anyone who cares to consider this a joke would be interested in facts.
Go to India and discuss this matter with the Hindu population - a few years ago they also considered it a joke - nowadays there is far more consideration to this 'joke' as you refer to it.
Its a bit like waving a piece of paper and claiming 'Peace in our Time' .... and that statement proved just as worthless when it also did not last even twelve months.
Read articles like:
Indian Census and Muslim population growth
India’s Growing Muslim Population: A Political Challenge? | The Diplomat

Note reference to the percentages - 33% Moslem and rising rapidly? 50% faster then the Hindu's? I assume you can do the math just as many of us can.
Look at Nigeria..... it was not that long ago when the figures were 70/30 Christian/Moslem. Now the numbers are reversed.

Of course it is apparent that many people fire of their email postings without adequate knowledge although they have a self belief that they know far more then others. There are none so blind as those that refuse to see.
You certainly do joke.
Regardless...I am not sure of the benefits of debating this matter on a yottie forum. I also see no merit of having this discussion with people that fire from the hip. Have a good day.
OUT.
well done Boatman
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Old 03-02-2016, 05:35   #36
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pirate Re: 9 Americans arrested in Saudi Arabia accused of cobtact with terrorists

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulawayo View Post
Realy, Boatman? You are not very aware then are you. This is a statement not a question. The subject is constantly and openly discussed within India and has been debated by the Indian Government.
Of course, you might well know more then the Indian Govt.
The 2011 Indian census also highlights the changing demographics - not that anyone who cares to consider this a joke would be interested in facts.
Go to India and discuss this matter with the Hindu population - a few years ago they also considered it a joke - nowadays there is far more consideration to this 'joke' as you refer to it.
Its a bit like waving a piece of paper and claiming 'Peace in our Time' .... and that statement proved just as worthless when it also did not last even twelve months.
Read articles like:
Indian Census and Muslim population growth
India’s Growing Muslim Population: A Political Challenge? | The Diplomat

Note reference to the percentages - 33% Moslem and rising rapidly? 50% faster then the Hindu's? I assume you can do the math just as many of us can.
Look at Nigeria..... it was not that long ago when the figures were 70/30 Christian/Moslem. Now the numbers are reversed.

Of course it is apparent that many people fire of their email postings without adequate knowledge although they have a self belief that they know far more then others. There are none so blind as those that refuse to see.
You certainly do joke.
Regardless...I am not sure of the benefits of debating this matter on a yottie forum. I also see no merit of having this discussion with people that fire from the hip. Have a good day.
OUT.
Hey.. WTF do I know.. was only raised and educated there.. family roots going back 200yrs in India...
Pretty sure an embittered Rhodesian/S African knows better..
A lot of the 'Unclean' converted to Christianity when the Brit's ruled.. however its strength left with us.. now the only way out of the Class System is Islam.. once again.. a religion of Convenience..
Your still unclean.. like us.. and as you know..
Animal instinct says.. there's safety in numbers..
And.. its a doddle to get work in Saudi or the Ememrates..
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Old 03-02-2016, 07:15   #37
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Re: 9 Americans arrested in Saudi Arabia accused of cobtact with terrorists

2 Boatman and Rustic Charm, regards!

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Old 03-02-2016, 07:15   #38
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Re: 9 Americans arrested in Saudi Arabia accused of cobtact with terrorists

This has been an entertaining read now I know what a debate between NBC and Fox would be like.
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Old 03-02-2016, 07:17   #39
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Re: 9 Americans arrested in Saudi Arabia accused of cobtact with terrorists

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This has been an entertaining read now I know what a debate between NBC and Fox would be like.
More like between Ron Paul and Bernie Sanders.
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Old 03-02-2016, 07:58   #40
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Re: 9 Americans arrested in Saudi Arabia accused of cobtact with terrorists

Respect for authority and cultural norms has diminished in the west and, while in many instances there is good reason for the same, there is nevertheless an undeniable fallout for such behavior. When I was a prosecutor, I can recall accused persons appearing in court in 'FTW' t-shirts, cut-off shorts - indeed, one man accused of domestic assault wearing a t-shirt that read ' Instant A**hole - Just add Alcohol.' This display of disrespect for the courts may to them have seemed funny, or 'rad', but it came at a cost: the Judge's understandably negative first impression, even if not lasting, will no doubt color his or her approach to the case.

When entering another country, we too can choose to disregard their cultural norms and in in doing so, appear to mock their institutions and authorities. We cannot, howver, expect to be treated with respect in return.

When clearing customs/immigration in the Caribbean I always wear long pants, deck shoes and a dress shirt. I always start any conversations with an official with "Good morning, Sir (or Madam)." In fact I do the same with store clerks - in much of the Caribbean it is consdered bad mnners to start any conversation/inquiry without a greeting - a recognition that you are dealing with a person and not a machine (or worse).

If a person in line in front of me is behaving rudely with officials I will try to catch their eye and shake my head, showing my displeasure with their conduct. When entering Anguilla last February another sailor was irate, dropping the 'F-bomb' when told that he needed to provide his crew list in triplicate and that no, they did not make photocopies. Not surpisingly, they wanted to inspect his boat prior to clearing him in for a 2 night stay - something I have seldom experienced.

So yes, you can choose to disrespect the culture and institutions of other countries - just be prepared to pay the price. If that county's cultural norms are too offensive to you (and I, for one, have no desire to visit a country where my wife would be expected to cover face and walk behind me) - then don't go.

Brad
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Old 03-02-2016, 08:17   #41
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Re: 9 Americans arrested in Saudi Arabia accused of cobtact with terrorists

Wow, and this from someone who was trading insults with Boatman a few moments again.
Nothing like hypocrocy in the desperate search to be accepted as one of the gang...... despite them having distain for your views.
Read boatmans last post and you may realise where he is coming from.......

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2 Boatman and Rustic Charm, regards!

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Old 03-02-2016, 08:19   #42
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Re: 9 Americans arrested in Saudi Arabia accused of cobtact with terrorists

Totally agree.


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Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
Respect for authority and cultural norms has diminished in the west and, while in many instances there is good reason for the same, there is nevertheless an undeniable fallout for such behavior. When I was a prosecutor, I can recall accused persons appearing in court in 'FTW' t-shirts, cut-off shorts - indeed, one man accused of domestic assault wearing a t-shirt that read ' Instant A**hole - Just add Alcohol.' This display of disrespect for the courts may to them have seemed funny, or 'rad', but it came at a cost: the Judge's understandably negative first impression, even if not lasting, will no doubt color his or her approach to the case.

When entering another country, we too can choose to disregard their cultural norms and in in doing so, appear to mock their institutions and authorities. We cannot, howver, expect to be treated with respect in return.

When clearing customs/immigration in the Caribbean I always wear long pants, deck shoes and a dress shirt. I always start any conversations with an official with "Good morning, Sir (or Madam)." In fact I do the same with store clerks - in much of the Caribbean it is consdered bad mnners to start any conversation/inquiry without a greeting - a recognition that you are dealing with a person and not a machine (or worse).

If a person in line in front of me is behaving rudely with officials I will try to catch their eye and shake my head, showing my displeasure with their conduct. When entering Anguilla last February another sailor was irate, dropping the 'F-bomb' when told that he needed to provide his crew list in triplicate and that no, they did not make photocopies. Not surpisingly, they wanted to inspect his boat prior to clearing him in for a 2 night stay - something I have seldom experienced.

So yes, you can choose to disrespect the culture and institutions of other countries - just be prepared to pay the price. If that county's cultural norms are too offensive to you (and I, for one, have no desire to visit a country where my wife would be expected to cover face and walk behind me) - then don't go.

Brad
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Old 03-02-2016, 13:48   #43
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Re: 9 Americans arrested in Saudi Arabia accused of cobtact with terrorists

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Originally Posted by Bulawayo View Post
Wow, and this from someone who was trading insults with Boatman a few moments again.
Nothing like hypocrocy in the desperate search to be accepted as one of the gang...... despite them having distain for your views.
Read boatmans last post and you may realise where he is coming from.......
Your a funny man Bulawayo.. you quote anti Muslim facts, make links to anti Muslim propoganda and all the time saying you won't comment any more or this is the last I'll say on this and then you just keep coming back and posting. Your one of those people that must have the last comment are you? not the slightest interest in any discussion, just having the last thing to say. (and frankly your posts come across as uninformed and bias)
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Old 03-02-2016, 14:03   #44
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pirate Re: 9 Americans arrested in Saudi Arabia accused of cobtact with terrorists

Actually to the best of my knowledge there is nowhere where a foreigner is compelled to cover her face and walk 3 paces behind.. a headscarf or light shawl covering the hair is sufficient..
Its only in Saudi they're seriously weird..
Put it down to a jumped up camel herders power trip..
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Old 03-02-2016, 14:10   #45
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pirate Re: 9 Americans arrested in Saudi Arabia accused of cobtact with terrorists

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulawayo View Post
Wow, and this from someone who was trading insults with Boatman a few moments again.
Nothing like hypocrocy in the desperate search to be accepted as one of the gang...... despite them having distain for your views.
Read boatmans last post and you may realise where he is coming from.......

Mate.. I'm multi- directional..
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