Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 08-11-2015, 00:23   #16
Registered User
 
Rustic Charm's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Boat: Bieroc 36 foot Ketch
Posts: 4,898
Re: 30ton Ferro cement Ketch about to voyage. Talk us out of a wind vane...

Quote:
Originally Posted by crunkbait View Post
Wo, wo, wo. Thats a new one. The auto helm vane uses a cable actuated trim tab on a aux rudder. Are you saying I could use that system on my main rudder? Thats pretty engenius but prone for...corrosion having submersed cables in hosing and whatnot.... can anyone elaborate?

I like where this is going.
Do you have a picture of your back side just so we can see what your needs are?

That's your boats backside with a picture of the rudder and keel set up.
__________________

__________________
Rustic Charm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2015, 00:50   #17
Registered User
 
Rustic Charm's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Boat: Bieroc 36 foot Ketch
Posts: 4,898
Re: 30ton Ferro cement Ketch about to voyage. Talk us out of a wind vane...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Were it me, I'd add the vane, but I'd build it myself... as I did on our last boat.

Auto pilots are great, and they have become more reliable over the years, but they are still notoriously failure prone. Being without some form of auto steering is not fatal, but it sure spoils a cruise, and can lead to fatigue levels which are dangerous as well as unpleasant.

But, it isn't necessary to buy a shiny new Hydrovane. Your type vessel does cry out for an auxiliary rudder/trim tab device like the HV, but the less expensive and often available used Auto Helm vane will do as well. That vane was the design on which I modeled my homebrew vane, and the result drove our previous boat many thousands of miles over a 17 yeahr period. Our present boat is of a type that is difficult to mount a vane on, so we substitute backup a/ps. I'd rather have the vane!

Jim
Jim, I'm making my own trim tab, but I don't quite grasp the concept of how these vanes work. So far I've not even seen one around. Can you recommend a very simple book/diagram that explains the concept? Then perhaps I can work out how to make a vane for my new trim tab.
__________________

__________________
Rustic Charm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2015, 01:22   #18
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,455
Re: 30ton Ferro cement Ketch about to voyage. Talk us out of a wind vane...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Jim, I'm making my own trim tab, but I don't quite grasp the concept of how these vanes work. So far I've not even seen one around. Can you recommend a very simple book/diagram that explains the concept? Then perhaps I can work out how to make a vane for my new trim tab.
I haven't looked for a long time, but the Scanmar Marine site (they manufacture the Auto Helm these days) will likely have some diagrams that show how the linkage is set up. I (sort of foolishly) let all my drawings for my home brew go when we sold the boat. What was I thinking????

Cheers,

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying Port Cygnet, Tasmania once again
Jim Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2015, 02:05   #19
Registered User
 
daletournier's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Seychelles
Boat: Catalina 470
Posts: 1,895
Re: 30ton Ferro cement Ketch about to voyage. Talk us out of a wind vane...

It's a personal choice. I have a hydrovane, I personally like having a second rudder. I like redundancy. It often comes down to dollars.

Sent from my GT-N7105T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
daletournier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2015, 02:06   #20
Long Range Cruiser
 
MarkJ's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australian living on "Sea Life" currently in England.
Boat: Beneteau 393 "Sea Life"
Posts: 12,828
Images: 25
Re: 30ton Ferro cement Ketch about to voyage. Talk us out of a wind vane...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
i wish some folks would 'try' to get along in a friendly manner like cf rules request without the need to be so critical.

I DID see the op had an auto pilot, I merely didn't have the technical knowledge to know it can't be connected to a trim tab easily.

Ummmm, not only do I get along, but whilst getting along over about 40,000mms on this boat over the last 7 years I have gotten along enough to have the technical experience as well as the practical. Just because you reply to a thread many times it doesn't mean your opinion is right. Just the same as your interpretation of the tone of my post.

Any cent wasted before a cruise will be sorely missed along the way.


Mark
__________________
MarkJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2015, 02:28   #21
Registered User
 
El Pinguino's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Punta Arenas ahorra
Boat: 39' Westerly Sealord
Posts: 3,954
Re: 30ton Ferro cement Ketch about to voyage. Talk us out of a wind vane...

Would I have one .....yes...simple as that.

Looking at your boat I would suggest a vertical axis vane coupled to an auxiliary rudder with trim tab.
Nothing attached under water to rudder, nothing attached to wheel above water...totally independent system.

Custom built and sized for my boat but the same design has been matched and fitted to boats from 30 to 70 foot.

Works good
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	WSslip03 (1).jpg
Views:	118
Size:	16.1 KB
ID:	112506   Click image for larger version

Name:	Serenade102.jpg
Views:	110
Size:	15.8 KB
ID:	112507  

El Pinguino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2015, 03:10   #22
Registered User
 
haiqu's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on Australia's east coast.
Boat: 'Keppelena' Hartley Queenslander 33'
Posts: 465
Re: 30ton Ferro cement Ketch about to voyage. Talk us out of a wind vane...

Secondhand Aries Windvanes often come up for under $1000 so I couldn't justify seven boatbucks for one. But then I'm independently poor and tend towards thriftiness as a survival mechanism.
__________________
http://www.cruiserswiki.org - Moderator

"The cure for anything is salt water... sweat, tears, or the sea" -- Isak Dinesen
haiqu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2015, 03:29   #23
Registered User
 
Snowpetrel's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Hobart
Boat: Alloy Peterson 40
Posts: 3,071
Re: 30ton Ferro cement Ketch about to voyage. Talk us out of a wind vane...

Lovely looking boat, and I like the distinctive paint scheme, but then I also like RC's Kermit green .

I sailed my parents big Ferro ketch around Nz as a kid, and offshore. No AP, or windvane. With the wind fwd of the beam she would self steer most of the time, and she could be coaxed to steer more or less slowly downwind with the staysail sheeted amidships and a reefed mizzen eased well out. And with us five boys as crew we always had a fresh helmsman available.

Given enough spare funds or time, I'd go something like Jim Cates and el pinguinos setup. I've used the same system on a much bigger boat (a Roberts 52) and it worked brilliantly. A big plus for the scanmar autohelm system with cables is that you can mount the vane high above any davits and well clear of the mizzens windshadow.

I've used a sayes rig. It worked well, but was hard to setup and remove. I think the auxiliary rudder system is the best for bigger boats, but the sayes rig is powerful and compact.

If you can track down a copy of Bill belchers book wind vane self steering it has pretty straight forward plans for simple systems.

If you're like most people and are short of money and time I'd just go, and hand steer if the autopilot craps out. A lot rests on the age of your kids (I assume they are your crew?) If they can hand steer then make sure they do so for practice, say an hour a day. And if the AP goes down they can help out where needed, and it will make them better sailers.

If you have a good emergency tiller setup, or possibly with a drum on the wheel a set of twins can be rigged, or one of the many sheet to tiller systems can be used to get you home if the AP dies.

Good Sailing, if you make it to Tasmania I'll look out for you.

Cheers.


Sent from my HTC_0PCV2 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
My Ramblings
Snowpetrel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2015, 03:56   #24
Registered User
 
Blue Crab's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Hurricane Highway
Boat: Cal 29
Posts: 3,882
pirate Re: 30ton Ferro cement Ketch about to voyage. Talk us out of a wind vane...

http://www.amazon.com/Self-Steering-.../dp/0877420424
__________________
Blue Crab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2015, 04:24   #25
Registered User
 
HankOnthewater's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: West Australia
Boat: production yacht, suitable for deep blue water ;)
Posts: 308
Re: 30ton Ferro cement Ketch about to voyage. Talk us out of a wind vane...

An autopilot can work well with trimtabs. This is an example of a 47 ft yacht, around the world over 6 years, with an (now old but still functioning) ‘Sharp Autotiller’, uses a lot less power than an AP that drives the main rudder.


[IMG]file:///C:\Users\retra\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\ clip_image002.jpg[/IMG]

Edit: hmmm, where are the photos?



Ideally the hinging point of such trimtabs should be in the same centre as the rudder post but this one was offset approx. 120 mm to the aft but still working well.


[IMG]file:///C:\Users\retra\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\ clip_image004.jpg[/IMG]
__________________
Wishing you all sunny skies above, clear water below, gentle winds behind and a safe port ahead,
and when coming this way check http://www.cruiserswiki.org/wiki/Albany,_Australia
HankOnthewater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2015, 04:28   #26
Registered User
 
HankOnthewater's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: West Australia
Boat: production yacht, suitable for deep blue water ;)
Posts: 308
Re: 30ton Ferro cement Ketch about to voyage. Talk us out of a wind vane...

here they are
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DSCF2403sm.jpg
Views:	96
Size:	36.6 KB
ID:	112511   Click image for larger version

Name:	DSCF2439sm.jpg
Views:	107
Size:	48.2 KB
ID:	112512  

__________________
Wishing you all sunny skies above, clear water below, gentle winds behind and a safe port ahead,
and when coming this way check http://www.cruiserswiki.org/wiki/Albany,_Australia
HankOnthewater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2015, 08:27   #27
Registered User
 
captmikem's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Ft Lauderdale
Boat: KP 46
Posts: 317
Images: 2
Re: 30ton Ferro cement Ketch about to voyage. Talk us out of a wind vane...

Autopilots are one of the items that seem to fail most when you need them. On a trip around the world I carried spare everything for my Robertson, and ended up buying a third control head in NZ. As the original and the spare went south, plus a few other parts. Wonderful things but you really miss them when they fail. And they do suck up a lot of amps over a 24 hour period.

If you are interested, I have a brandy new, never used Monitor windvane that I would sell for a lot less than new. It has vertical mounts, and would fit your boat. PM me if interested.

Michael
__________________
captmikem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2015, 08:38   #28
Senior Cruiser
 
seasick's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Bend, OR
Boat: Brewer designed Pacific 43 in fiberglass. Center cockpit set up for long-distance single handing.
Posts: 430
Re: 30ton Ferro cement Ketch about to voyage. Talk us out of a wind vane...

Connect with Kym at Columbia Marine Exchange in Portland, OR. Tell her you're looking for a vane. She usually has several used ones in stock for around $1,000.

If you have hydraulic steering go with an auxiliary rudder vane. Jim Cate's advice is spot on.

The Scanmar Marine Auto Helm vane would be particularly fitting for your boat.

You will be glad you went for the vane. Not only for the piece of mind of having a second rudder but for not consuming mass quantities of electricity.

If you can't find one, PM me. I have a completely rebuilt Auto Helm vane I'd
Part with for $2,000
__________________
seasick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2015, 08:41   #29
Moderator
 
HappyMdRSailor's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: North Mississippi
Boat: 48 Wauquiez Pilot Saloon-C22 Chrysler Sunpiper- 19 Potter-Preparing to cruise w/my girl
Posts: 5,980
Re: 30ton Ferro cement Ketch about to voyage. Talk us out of a wind vane...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
I haven't looked for a long time, but the Scanmar Marine site (they manufacture the Auto Helm these days) will likely have some diagrams that show how the linkage is set up. I (sort of foolishly) let all my drawings for my home brew go when we sold the boat. What was I thinking????

Cheers,

Jim
Jim...

If that's your biggest regret, you have a TON of catching up do !!!

(I hear ya... I would have likely done the same thing....)
***sigh***
__________________
In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair...

Mai Tai's fix everything...
HappyMdRSailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2015, 08:46   #30
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Currently in Spain
Boat: Island Packet 420
Posts: 136
Re: 30ton Ferro cement Ketch about to voyage. Talk us out of a wind vane...

I have been on a total of 4 ocean sails, 3 in the past 2 years, where there was autopilot failure. My boat's AH computer gave up the ghost in the Bahamas and 2 other sailboats on deliveries, one in the English Channel and one off-shore eastern coast of the US. I have now outfitted a hydrovane on my boat for a planned Atlantic crossing. I like the redundancy and wouldn't cross an ocean without one.
__________________

__________________
sailing_gal is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
ferro, ketch, men, wind, wind vane

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Looking for a Ferro Cement Ketch Jakob89 Monohull Sailboats 2 07-12-2011 16:29



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:08.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.