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Old 18-07-2010, 08:23   #61
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However, I do have to agree with Rebel Heart's comment. To ask for donations to finance your life of fun seems, how can I say this politely, audacious maybe even arrogant. I guess good for you if you can find people that will give you money so you don't have to earn it but think I will donate elsewhere.
I find it amazing that people have such problems with this. Audacious and arrogant? Really?

Those Pardeys sure are an arrogant bunch aren't they? Sailing and having fun and then coming back, writing books about it, and expecting you to pay for it so they can do more of it.

Or how about that Tanya Abei? The gall. Sailing around the world, and then trying to profit off of it by writing about it. And trying to make money for a book publisher as well. I tell you, these people.

Captain Fatty Goodlander. What a sellout. Look at all the fun that guy is having. And some magazine is paying him. That magazine that you buy for four bucks even though it is 90% advertising. Outrageous!

What about that frequent contributor here at CF, Maxing Out, sailing around the world and then selling DVDs of their adventure? The audacity.

I would imagine with your high sense of morality that you must be leaving the Cruisers Forum in disgust. I mean, Google Ads all over the place. Even right there on Rebel Hearts post above. Some anonymous owner of this site is making hundreds of dollars a day off of your writing. Not working for it like you do. Disgusting right?

Listen, you may think my writing and photos are worth zero, but there are actually folks out there that enjoy reading about my adventures. Here is part of an e-mail I got yesterday. To people like these our website has value.

Pat and Ali: I just read on a cruisers forum that you bought another boat and I have to say congrats are in order. I read about all the b.s. from the cruisers forums while you were on the first Bum and I say crap to them for you changed our lives as I told you before. We bought a catamaran just over a year ago in Grenada and in November we sailed it from Grenada to where it is sitting out the current hurricane season in St. Augustine. We had 0 sailing experience but getting xxxxx, my wife, to read of your unfolding adventures was the sales ticket.

Of course our website and all of its content is still free. Anyone can read it and never give us a dime. Most do. But there are a few people that feel it was valuable enough to them to contribute something towards it.

I'll even tell you how much we make. As a percentage it is 3% of our avg. monthly expenses. That means that for, roughly, each three years we are out having fun, one month of that is paid for by donations to our site.

So anyway, feel free to contribute elsewhere. Buy another sailing magazine. Or another sailing related book. Or continue to come to Cruisers Forum and directly or indirectly contribute to them through their advertising. Doesn't make one bit of difference to my life, or how I chose to live it.

One last thing. Because I know the folks here will tear me apart if I don't point this out. I was merely making my point above. I do not consider myself or my website to be the equal to any of those writers named.

Pat
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Old 18-07-2010, 08:32   #62
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I look forward to hearing how you like sailing downwind in the trades in your monohull.
Hey Maxing Out,

I agree completely. There was nothing better than pointing that cat directly downwind and having the most amazingly smooth ride one could ever imagine having on water. I'm sure there will be many things we don't like about monohulls. I have no doubt about that.

But I'm sure there will be things we do like as well. And like I said, it's something new for us. I like that already. Can't stand doing the same thing over and over.

Ultimately what it came down to was price. We could afford this boat and still be able to cruise and live a carefree life with our young baby in tow. I couldn't have said the same thing if we had wanted to buy another cat. Or I guess I could have gone back to work and hoped to make a bunch of money while not getting tied down to land. But I've seen how that usually works out for people.

Nope, this was the quickest ticket back to life on the water. So we took it.

We met you way back in Ft. Lauderdale. Hope we get the chance again somewhere down the line.

Jim Cate - Good to hear from you again. Glad to know that your voyaging continues. Maybe we'll catch up to you again down the line.

Reba - Best of luck to you guys. All I can say is, go for it. It's an overused saying, but nothing says it better. The worst that can happen is you fail. Trying and failing isn't a failure to me. Not trying is. Good luck and let me know if we can help in any way.

Pat
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Old 18-07-2010, 09:18   #63
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Give them hell.

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Old 18-07-2010, 09:49   #64
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Hello Pat,

So much to say I have to write/edit it in Word over a period of time.

When I found your blog I was entranced. I have read it all once and many parts more than once. I have even created several documents with opinions, notes and questions that I ended up keeping to myself.

I have spent years here doing the “couch” thing waiting for the phone to ring (I am basically “on call” 24/7) while learning from others. There are only a few like you who actually were out there doing instead of dreaming. Us, well, we realized we have many more anchors ashore than we thought we did when we said “Heck lets just do it.” Maybe in a few years.

I agree with TAO about parts of your personality. I could read between the lines many times to know that you are a quick learner and as competent a mechanic (this includes all aspects of keeping a boat going) as any sailor afloat. You just don’t portend to give advice like most. You just go ahead and do it till it works. Good for you.

Congratulations on passing on your genes too. A couple more would enhance the gene pool here on Earth. Lord knows it needs some help from “doers”. Having a compatible mate is a wonderful thing. You will live longer also.

I have noted you are not worrying about the PayPal discord. Good. Sorry, but I didn’t buy you any pizza either because I figured you as a smart couple and fully able to fend for yourselves as I have had to do my entire adult life too.

I am looking forward to following you on the water again. The land stuff I could not keep up with for some reason. Except for the rally in the Porsche. Your abilities are amazing and proven there also.

All the best from another total stranger.

PS: I was also under the same impression that the best surveyor was a need. What a waste. Two items I pointed out to him were waved away as “That isn’t anything.” or some such statement. I fixed the stuff. I do wonder if he learned from you though as he spent an inordinate amount of time tapping the hull with his little hammer. BUT, my hull is not cored. Go figure.
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Old 18-07-2010, 10:12   #65
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I've just returned from perusing the Bumfuzzle blog for the first time, and can see how the heresies being espoused on that site are getting cruiser's bums into a fuzzle. On July 13th the blogger wrote, regarding the purchase of a new boat, "But all that proved to me was that if you plan properly, and don't put yourself in extended nasty weather, you can sail the world in pretty much anything."

OMG. Pretty much anything. Doesn't this Bumfuzzle character realize that the ONLY safe way to go to sea is to build a steel double-hulled lifeboat-with-a-stick and equip it with parachute anchors, semi-automatic weapons, a pair of motorized bilge pumps and 500 feet of 1" chain welded to a 200 lb CQR? And then spread tacks on deck at night?

"Irresponsible adventures" indeed! We could use a bit more of that, here on CF.

(And I am especially appreciative of the critique of marine surveyors. Welcome to the forum, Bumfuzzle.)
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Old 18-07-2010, 10:57   #66
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All power to ya!
"Live like you want to live, baby."
Hope the new boat works out for you all, & if it doesn't...try something else.
What's this issue with free web sites giving folks the choice of contributing?
How about a discussion about the millions of lazy bast*rds who draw welfare/disability/unemployment/state funded pensions............all paid for by the rest of us without us having any choice in the matter.
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Old 18-07-2010, 11:04   #67
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Don't take any crap here, Pat. I discovered the blog a few weeks ago and spent the next week reading from start to finish. Good on you for standing up telling it like it is. My wife is now reading the blog and is slowly coming over to the idea of going sailing. Up to now, she steadfastly refused to even consider it. So a big thanks to you and Ali.
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Old 18-07-2010, 11:22   #68
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Originally Posted by Bumfuzzle View Post
Of course our website and all of its content is still free. Anyone can read it and never give us a dime. Most do. But there are a few people that feel it was valuable enough to them to contribute something towards it.

Pat
Pat, there is another thread going on now called “PayPal Sailors” and it addresses that concept as an internet phenomena.

Of course it has been going on for a long time, with founders like Slocum and Motessier accomplishing some “firsts” and then writing about it to fund their adventures.

Today via blogs it is more like “reality shows” and for most of those, it can be a double edge sword full of praise and criticism if judged as a commercial venture.

I think I understand your primary intent is to create a historical record for your children and if others find pleasure and wish to contribute…. Well that is just a bonus!

Took me a while to figure that out and I offer no basis for judgment as I have no right.

Here at CF where I can share my sailing knowledge amongst my peers, payment is in Friendship and your contributions are the given currency.

Cheers!
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Old 18-07-2010, 11:47   #69
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Originally Posted by Bumfuzzle View Post
I find it amazing that people have such problems with this. Audacious and arrogant? Really?

Those Pardeys sure are an arrogant bunch aren't they? Sailing and having fun and then coming back, writing books about it, and expecting you to pay for it so they can do more of it.

Or how about that Tanya Abei? The gall. Sailing around the world, and then trying to profit off of it by writing about it. And trying to make money for a book publisher as well. I tell you, these people.

Captain Fatty Goodlander. What a sellout. Look at all the fun that guy is having. And some magazine is paying him. That magazine that you buy for four bucks even though it is 90% advertising. Outrageous!

What about that frequent contributor here at CF, Maxing Out, sailing around the world and then selling DVDs of their adventure? The audacity.

I would imagine with your high sense of morality that you must be leaving the Cruisers Forum in disgust. I mean, Google Ads all over the place. Even right there on Rebel Hearts post above. Some anonymous owner of this site is making hundreds of dollars a day off of your writing. Not working for it like you do. Disgusting right?

Listen, you may think my writing and photos are worth zero, but there are actually folks out there that enjoy reading about my adventures. Here is part of an e-mail I got yesterday. To people like these our website has value.

Pat and Ali: I just read on a cruisers forum that you bought another boat and I have to say congrats are in order. I read about all the b.s. from the cruisers forums while you were on the first Bum and I say crap to them for you changed our lives as I told you before. We bought a catamaran just over a year ago in Grenada and in November we sailed it from Grenada to where it is sitting out the current hurricane season in St. Augustine. We had 0 sailing experience but getting xxxxx, my wife, to read of your unfolding adventures was the sales ticket.

Of course our website and all of its content is still free. Anyone can read it and never give us a dime. Most do. But there are a few people that feel it was valuable enough to them to contribute something towards it.

I'll even tell you how much we make. As a percentage it is 3% of our avg. monthly expenses. That means that for, roughly, each three years we are out having fun, one month of that is paid for by donations to our site.

So anyway, feel free to contribute elsewhere. Buy another sailing magazine. Or another sailing related book. Or continue to come to Cruisers Forum and directly or indirectly contribute to them through their advertising. Doesn't make one bit of difference to my life, or how I chose to live it.

One last thing. Because I know the folks here will tear me apart if I don't point this out. I was merely making my point above. I do not consider myself or my website to be the equal to any of those writers named.

Pat
Hi Pat,

Obviously I have offended you and I sincerely apologize. That was not my intent and looking back on my post I agree the wording was harsher than I intended.

But I guess wording and interpretation are at the heart of our different views on the situation. I can see your point that many people charge for their writings and you feel that this is what you are doing. I think the difference and what has caused a reaction not just from me but from several others is a matter of the wording and how your request for money is presented.

In the case of the Pardeys, Tania Abei and many, many others, they have written a book for publishing that is clearly a product that is marketed for gain. If one likes the product then one is free to purchase that product or not.

However on your website you ask for "donations". A donation is commonly defined and understood to mean a gift to a charitable organization or worthwhile cause. Perhaps I am showing my age and the new definition is different. Perhaps donation can also mean payment for product or services but again, I am not the only one on the forum that saw it the other way.

May I suggest that the entire issue is just one of a number of people misunderstanding your intent. Would it be rude of me to suggest you might reword your blog to make it more obvious that you are asking for payment for content and not a charitable donation to your personal account?
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Old 18-07-2010, 12:19   #70
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Every boat is a compromise, just like every boat needs some work. Pat & Allie have chosen a different set of compromises this time. Again I must thank them for having done what they have already done, helping motivate people like me and my family to leave the ranks of know-it-all couch cruisers and join those who are actually doing it.
Thanks guys, we hope to be following in your wake soon.
We'll be there.
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Old 18-07-2010, 12:41   #71
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Skipmac - I'll explain really quickly why you see Donate buttons used. If you use Paypal you generally use one of their pre-made buttons. The button choices are Buy Now, Pay Now, and Donate. If you were to chose to use Buy Now, or Pay Now, there would then be a bunch of options for quantity, price of item, etc... With Donate there is simply a space for the person to enter a dollar amount that they'd like to give. And I think it makes sense, if you click Buy Now or Pay Now it seems as if you are going to receive a product in return. Something other than what is already being given to you for free.

Also, I won't go into semantics, but if you look up the word donate you'll find that it also means a gratuity. I would consider this much closer to what my button means. I won't be rewording my blog either as I am not asking for payment for content. My website is free. If you'd like to DONATE because you enjoyed that content, great. I really doubt anybody is mistaking us for a charitable organization.

The only other thing I can think of to compare it to is free software commonly found on the web. A developer produces a product then distributes it for free. Often on those websites there is a donate button. Should he instead have to put a Buy Now button on there? Even though you aren't buying the product, it is free.

Anyway, that's my final word on what I find to be an incredibly silly topic.

On another note, I have to say that this is the sort of nonsense discussion that I worried I would find myself drawn into here. I take full responsibility. I'm the one that fell for it. But it's the reason I never came here during our first cruise. So many people spend so many hours here arguing semantics that I don't know how they get anything else accomplished.

I'm out of here. Thanks to everyone for all the nice words. We'll be at Hidden Harbor Marina near Rio Vista, CA for a while and genuinely extend an open invitation for anybody to drop by any time to say hi, talk shop, and have a beer. We're big fans of the "drop in".

All the best.

Pat
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Old 18-07-2010, 12:52   #72
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Don't give up just yet Bf. Lots of people enjoy what you do and would love to have you here. I would do what you do if I had something to share at this point . Hope you stay but yes I do see your frustration ,too.
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Old 18-07-2010, 12:56   #73
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<snip>
However on your website you ask for "donations". A donation is commonly defined and understood to mean a gift to a charitable organization or worthwhile cause. Perhaps I am showing my age and the new definition is different. Perhaps donation can also mean payment for product or services but again, I am not the only one on the forum that saw it the other way.

May I suggest that the entire issue is just one of a number of people misunderstanding your intent. Would it be rude of me to suggest you might reword your blog to make it more obvious that you are asking for payment for content and not a charitable donation to your personal account?
Pat can certainly speak for himself, Skip, but I think you should look at this a bit differently. Consider, if you will, your local NPR or PBS station. They provide content that many people can't appreciate, but some do.

Of those who do, some are moved to make "donations" to help support the continuing availability of the content they enjoy. I believe the ratio of supporters to those who enjoy the content without donating anything to help defray the expense of providing it is something like 1:100 - but, whatever it is, you get the point.

Would you call those who take the content without supporting the infrastructure that brings it to them "freeloaders?"

The content Pat Schulte is providing, free of charge, is available to every "freeloader" on the planet with the ability to get online. Most don't even know it exists, and of those who do, not all enjoy the content. But there is a devoted core of content consumers who regularly "take" what is freely offered, yet only a small percentage of those consumers will see fit to contribute a "donation" to assist in defraying the expense of providing it.

That's why donation is the perfect word to describe what is happening. Anyone who wishes to can access the content for free - even those who love it are not compelled to financially support its production nor to "help keep it on the air" - but those who choose to voluntarily donate to the continued production of content and the expense of making it available are given a convenient means to do so.

Pat is no less a content provider than NPR or PBS, and while he will continue to make his content freely available, providing the means for his consumers to make a contribution of their own free will is hardly begging.

TaoJones
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Old 18-07-2010, 13:45   #74
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On another note, I have to say that this is the sort of nonsense discussion that I worried I would find myself drawn into here. I take full responsibility. I'm the one that fell for it. But it's the reason I never came here during our first cruise. So many people spend so many hours here arguing semantics that I don't know how they get anything else accomplished.
I don't blame you.
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Old 18-07-2010, 13:51   #75
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Pat can certainly speak for himself, Skip, but I think you should look at this a bit differently. Consider, if you will, your local NPR or PBS station. They provide content that many people can't appreciate, but some do.

Of those who do, some are moved to make "donations" to help support the continuing availability of the content they enjoy. I believe the ratio of supporters to those who enjoy the content without donating anything to help defray the expense of providing it is something like 1:100 - but, whatever it is, you get the point.

Would you call those who take the content without supporting the infrastructure that brings it to them "freeloaders?"

The content Pat Schulte is providing, free of charge, is available to every "freeloader" on the planet with the ability to get online. Most don't even know it exists, and of those who do, not all enjoy the content. But there is a devoted core of content consumers who regularly "take" what is freely offered, yet only a small percentage of those consumers will see fit to contribute a "donation" to assist in defraying the expense of providing it.

That's why donation is the perfect word to describe what is happening. Anyone who wishes to can access the content for free - even those who love it are not compelled to financially support its production nor to "help keep it on the air" - but those who choose to voluntarily donate to the continued production of content and the expense of making it available are given a convenient means to do so.

Pat is no less a content provider than NPR or PBS, and while he will continue to make his content freely available, providing the means for his consumers to make a contribution of their own free will is hardly begging.

TaoJones
Hi Tao,

I do agree that I was initially reading the request from one, narrow point of view and it is just as valid to see the request as compensation for enjoyment of the content.

Also have no problem with anyone asking for payment for value delivered.

Again want to apologize to Pat and to the forum for criticizing Pat due to the way I personally interpreted his website.

Not to excuse myself, but due to other comments and threads it does seem that the way his request is presented does cause the same misunderstanding with others. Yes donate certainly can mean other things but the most common usage is in the context of charitable causes.

I'm sorry Pat sees his experiences on Cruiser's Forum as always deteriorating to semantic arguments and hope he can get past this and stay with us.
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