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Old 10-05-2015, 19:12   #31
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Re: What's the best kind of sailboat to buy for a beginner?

And as captain ron says "if anythings gunna happen it gunna happen out there " ; )
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Old 10-05-2015, 19:17   #32
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Re: What's the best kind of sailboat to buy for a beginner?

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Originally Posted by wife_of_popeye View Post
I've heard that some people have sailboats wasting away in garages or docks that they'd practically give away. How do I find these people?
Here you go:

Boat free.. | powerboats, motorboats | Kingston | Kijiji

There have been about 5 free boats in my area in the last month...mostly sail.
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Old 10-05-2015, 19:41   #33
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Re: What's the best kind of sailboat to buy for a beginner?

.......
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Old 10-05-2015, 19:52   #34
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Re: What's the best kind of sailboat to buy for a beginner?

#Deadhorsebeat or not I'd vote for a Santana 22 as well. Our first boat and it was a tank.

It took anything SF Bay could throw at it and definitely has enough room for a couple for a long weekend.
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Old 11-05-2015, 11:22   #35
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Re: What's the best kind of sailboat to buy for a beginner?

Another vote for C22 as a first boat.
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Old 11-05-2015, 11:31   #36
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Re: What's the best kind of sailboat to buy for a beginner?

I learned to sail on a Santana 22, and would get another one. They are great boats. Very seaworthy.

I'm sure C22s are fine too, and there are certainly plenty about. I just don't see how a boat can be safe with a skipper who doesn't know how, or doesn't want to, maintain it.

At a minimum you need a rig that is safe, safety equipment that works, an engine that will start when you need it.
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Old 11-05-2015, 11:40   #37
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Re: What's the best kind of sailboat to buy for a beginner?

OPB other people's boats. Join a club meet people sail.

Sent from my SM-G860P using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
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Old 11-05-2015, 23:07   #38
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Re: What's the best kind of sailboat to buy for a beginner?

Wife of Popeye - The suggestions of Catalina 22, Cal 20 and Santana 22 are all good boats. But the suggesters did make a few misstatements. Both the Santana 22 and the Cal 20 are faster than the Catalina 22. I say this as one that raced a Catalina 22 on San Francisco Bay extensively from 1973 through 1985, some on Tahoe and MANY other places between Seatle - San Diego - Dallas and Atlanta. I was also commodor of the NATIONAL Catalina 22 Sailing Association in 1973. I've also sailed and raced the Cal 20 and the Santana 22.
But both the Santana 22 and the Cal 20 are fixed keel and therefore harder to launch from a ramp. With a hoist they're just about as easy. You're at Tahoe so it will be absolutely necessary to be able to haul out for the winter, and a dry sailed boat needn't have bottom paint. And don't let anyone tell you that bottom paint isn't necessary when the boat is kept in fresh water. (Though the Tahoe regional authority MAY not permit toxic bottom paint, last I heard they were proposing that a decade or more ago.) The Catalina 22 with a swing keel is both loghter and, on a trailer, lower, thus easier to trailer should you want to sail the Bay or Delta in the Tahoe winter.


All three boats are pretty easy to sail. The interior room in the Catalina 22 is a little more than in the Santana 22, and much more than in the Cal 20.


And I suggest getting in contact with the Tahoe Yacht Club (
General Manager, Mariana Dye: gm@tahoeyc.com), and/or the South Lake Tahoe Yacht Club www.southlaketahoeyachtclub.com
And don't let the "Yacht Club" name turn you off. Though I haven't been to either I have been to many and I can say that some on the east coast justify that feeling. But none that I've been to on the Pacific Coast, even San Diego Yacht Club and Saint Francis Yacht Club, are anywhere near as snooty. And most are downright friendly. Members of the local yacht clubs will gladdly help you decide what would suit you best in their waters and willinly help you.


And when you say "I don't want a sailboat that I have to fix" I presume you mean that you'd not want a fixer-upper, because there is no such thing as a boat that will never need some fixing. Another plus for the Catalina 22 is that Catalina Yachts, the manufacturer, is still in business and still making a Catalina 22. Neither the Cal 20 nor the Santana 22 are still being made. Even the designers of those two classes are no longer living.


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Old 11-05-2015, 23:17   #39
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Re: What's the best kind of sailboat to buy for a beginner?

I was under the impression that the Santana 22 is available new again :

http://www.wdschock.com/boats/santana22/s22_new.htm
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Old 12-05-2015, 01:54   #40
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Re: What's the best kind of sailboat to buy for a beginner?

A quick check of craigslist shows several Cal 20's available in the SF Bay Area. One has a trailer, but needs work. The other is in much better shape, but sans trailer.
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Old 12-05-2015, 09:45   #41
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Re: What's the best kind of sailboat to buy for a beginner?

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Originally Posted by secrabtree View Post
Wife of Popeye - The suggestions of Catalina 22, Cal 20 and Santana 22 are all good boats. But the suggesters did make a few misstatements. Both the Santana 22 and the Cal 20 are faster than the Catalina 22. I say this as one that raced a Catalina 22 on San Francisco Bay extensively from 1973 through 1985, some on Tahoe and MANY other places between Seatle - San Diego - Dallas and Atlanta. I was also commodor of the NATIONAL Catalina 22 Sailing Association in 1973. I've also sailed and raced the Cal 20 and the Santana 22.

This says otherwise: http://www.yra.org/PHRF/docs/ncphrf_baserates.pdf
Per Northern California PHRF ratings the Santana rates about 234-237 and is significantly faster racing than the Cal or Catalina. The Cal rates 270. The swing keel type 1 Catalina 22 rates 270 and the fixed keel version rates rates 261.


But both the Santana 22 and the Cal 20 are fixed keel and therefore harder to launch from a ramp. With a hoist they're just about as easy. You're at Tahoe so it will be absolutely necessary to be able to haul out for the winter...The Catalina 22 with a swing keel is both loghter (sic) and, on a trailer, lower, thus easier to trailer should you want to sail the Bay or Delta in the Tahoe winter.

Try again:
CAL 20 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
SANTANA 22 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
CATALINA 22 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
While the Santana is 110lb heavier than the Catalina, the Cal is 550lb lighter, that means the Catalina is more than 25% heavier. Whatever the impacts of fixed vs swing keel are on launching weight will have a significant impact on what vehicles would be adequate for towing. As far as the launching goes an extendable tongue on the trailer should make launching the fixed keels comparable to the swing keel. Of course this will cost to convert the trailer as it seems unlikely a cheap boat will come with that kind of trailer.



Another plus for the Catalina 22 is that Catalina Yachts, the manufacturer, is still in business and still making a Catalina 22. Neither the Cal 20 nor the Santana 22 are still being made. Even the designers of those two classes are no longer living.
You are really stretching to try and knock the other boats. What does it matter if 2 of the designers are dead, Frank Butler is long retired and probably not interested in offering advice on fixing his boats.

Yes Catalina is still in business and making a newer version of the 22 but not the version the OP will be buying, also they are in LA and the east coast.

WD Schock is still in business near LA. While the 22 is no longer in production the 20 is, and some of the early production of this boat would probably be in the OP's price range.

Cal is out of business but Seal's Spars is doing a great job of supporting the Cal 20 class, check out their website.

All 3 of these boats (4 including the Santana 20) would be perfectly acceptable starter boats. I would start by looking at the tow vehicle that is available, everything else follows from that.
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Old 12-05-2015, 09:51   #42
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Re: What's the best kind of sailboat to buy for a beginner?

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I was under the impression that the Santana 22 is available new again :

http://www.wdschock.com/boats/santana22/s22_new.htm
The following is a cut and paste from the WDSchock website:
Santana 22
1969-'79
747 built
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Old 12-05-2015, 10:26   #43
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Re: What's the best kind of sailboat to buy for a beginner?

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You are really stretching to try and knock the other boats. What does it matter if 2 of the designers are dead, Frank Butler is long retired and probably not interested in offering advice on fixing his boats.

Yes Catalina is still in business and making a newer version of the 22 but not the version the OP will be buying, also they are in LA and the east coast.

WD Schock is still in business near LA. While the 22 is no longer in production the 20 is, and some of the early production of this boat would probably be in the OP's price range.

Cal is out of business but Seal's Spars is doing a great job of supporting the Cal 20 class, check out their website.

All 3 of these boats (4 including the Santana 20) would be perfectly acceptable starter boats. I would start by looking at the tow vehicle that is available, everything else follows from that.
Adelie - I'm not attempting to knock the other boats. I was stating, from experience, some of the differences between the Catalina 22, the Cal 20, and the Santana 22.
You used the phrf ratings to show that the Catalina 22 and the Cal 20 are equal in speed. I used racing in San Francisco Bay for eight years in the SYRA (Small Yacht Racing Association) where the different classes are given separate starts, the slower classes after faster classes. The Cal 20 and the Santana 22 starts were before the Catalina 22. There were 5 minutes between class starts. It is true that the first Catalina 22 (often me) finished before the last boat of the preceding class, but always more than five minutes after the first boat of the preceding class.


As for the comparison between the swing keel and fixed keel Catalina 22s, I base my statement only upon my experience racing 8 years extensively my own swing keel Catalina 22 and a number of swing keels borrowed at various national regattas and some local regattas against only one experience racing a borrowed fixed keel in a single national championship regatta, one where the fixed keel and the swing keel raced together with no handicap. I know of no regatta where the fixed and swing raced together and the fixed won. Absolutely none. And I competed in the first 9 National Regattas. The PHRF, at least in the San Francisco Bay area as it was from the mid 1970s to the mid 80s, a rating system that favored certain classes and hurt others. It was greatly influenced by who complained about their rating and who their friends were. My experience with PHRF was not as a competitor, but as a member of race committees for many decades (many being more than 5). Yes, I am an old bastard.
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Old 12-05-2015, 10:35   #44
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Re: What's the best kind of sailboat to buy for a beginner?

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You got some goodsuggestions from those who have owned and know the boats and SF Bay.

My view?
And, it has a stronger 7.5 HP long shaft motor, which I think would be better for SF Bay motoring and would make this boat my choice of the two to see first.
Just what we used to have on SF Bay, great bay boat. We sailed it off the trailer during the winter and took it to Clear Lake for the summers.
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Old 12-05-2015, 10:42   #45
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Re: What's the best kind of sailboat to buy for a beginner?

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Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
You are really stretching to try and knock the other boats. What does it matter if 2 of the designers are dead, Frank Butler is long retired and probably not interested in offering advice on fixing his boats.

Yes Catalina is still in business and making a newer version of the 22 but not the version the OP will be buying, also they are in LA and the east coast.

WD Schock is still in business near LA. While the 22 is no longer in production the 20 is, and some of the early production of this boat would probably be in the OP's price range.

Cal is out of business but Seal's Spars is doing a great job of supporting the Cal 20 class, check out their website.

All 3 of these boats (4 including the Santana 20) would be perfectly acceptable starter boats. I would start by looking at the tow vehicle that is available, everything else follows from that.
Oh, and Adelie. About the trailor with an extendable tongue - I had one for my Catalina 22 (it was unnecessary and I welded the tongue fixed), but it would not have gotten either a Cal 20 or a Santana 22 deep enough to float off or on the trailer when extended. When it was operable it barely got the Catalina 22 into deep enough waters with most ramps. (With the extension I could manually push the boat off the trailer, without the extension I just backed fairly quickly and jammed on the brakes and let momentum slide the boat free.)


And I admit to being wrong about the weight of the Cal 20. I based my assumption on the fact that it bounced much less in racing on the San Francisco Bay chop.


Also, I'd take the weight specifications with a pound (not a grain) of salt. That figAdelie -ure is the design weight. As actually built, at least in the early years of Catalina 22 production, they were considerably heavier.
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